3bob

Your conditioned and attached response again; just ask yourself what if you are wrong since you are taking the stance of being right?

Sounds like a smart cookie and a good egg.

Serene Blue, I think a very important thread could be started on what you've noted below: "...This has created a dilemma for me oftentimes. How far do I read in order for said Text to render assistance in actually experiencing heartmind and how do I tell when it's pushed me over the edge into too much intellectualization and conceptualizing something? "At the moment I think I tend to do the latter. Mainly because my reading has outstripped my attainments. Which creates yet other problems. 1) Builds up an expectation of a way a certain attainment should be when maybe the real experience ends up being something partially or even completely different. 2) Builds up impatience for attainments. I find this a very hard one to not give into! I read or hear about heartmind and damnit I wanna know it for myself. The more I read the greater the desire. The greater the desire the shorter my patience. The shorter my patience the harder it is to sit for the longer periods of time probably necessary to actually finally experience heartmind. Do I think those texts are harmful in most cases? I'm guessing probably not. But for me I can't seem to escape the expectations they build and the fallout thereof..." Well I know many of us can relate to these points! A few simplistic generalizations that you've probably heard and read a hundred times and which may not apply to you, so this may not help much: (?) Attainments as in certain types of experiences and powers that can be gained can also be lost or go awry, for such things are meant to be tools and signposts for help - and not the goal of spiritual practices meant for uncovering what we already are which can not really be gained or lost by any power of mind because such powers are always secondary to and side benefits of the quintessential spiritual truth and foundational-base that of itself can not be lost, gained or go awry! In consideration of that great masters that have or who are walking the earth now still have to practice the very beginning step of non-violence 24/7 in every action and deed or loose any siddhis attained and possibly far worse in reverse effects. Thus the path unfolds from this first humble step and is also and forever maintained by that step... yet how often do many of us at this website sometimes break this step while also talking of and referencing all sorts of very far out inner mystical stuff!! Om

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So it seems, but I'd say there is only one ultimate energy, although and after it takes on various forms that can be manipulated through will it can then be used for or by either good or evil.

An important and key point Ralis! An over-whelming power of Compassion renders the lie powerless before its eye, heart and hand, further yet it can transfrom the twisted and stolen power of the lie beyond what would or could "normally" be done...

"You've just trumped and one up'd me" I did not make that suggestion concerning your personal experiences although it might have sounded so. (sorry) Then again and as you well know you have submitted speculations related to Taoism and wide ranging generalizations to say the least about other ways that sound like or could be specualtion on your part? Anyhow I think the Buddha did some trumping a long time ago along some of these lines: "In the "Discourse to Vacchagotta on Fire" the wandering monk Vacchagotta asks the Buddha about the status of the Tathagata. The Buddha responds with the familiar four-fold negation: I, Vaccha, am not of this view: "The Tathagata is after dying." I, Vaccha, am not of this view: "The Tathagata is not after dying." I, Vaccha, am not of this view: "The Tathagata both is and is not after dying." I, Vaccha, am not of this view: "The Tathagata neither is nor is not after dying."(16) When Vacchagotta then asks, "What is the peril the revered Gotama beholds that he thus does not approach any of these (speculative) views?" we are told, holding a view, the wilds of views, the wriggling of views, the scuffling of views, the fetter of views; it is accompanied by anguish, distress, misery, fever; it does not conduce to turning away from, nor to dispassion, stopping, calming, superknowledge, awakening, nor to nibbana (nirvana). I, Vaccha, beholding that this is a peril, thus do not approach any of these (speculative) views"... I thought that quote was pretty straight forward but there might be some debate about it also. (but not much from me at this time) Om

No apologies needed CT, btw that was not fanatical to me, more like redemptive.

Hello VJ, I'd say and or guess that its ok to many people that you refer to and or quote Buddhist materials (like some have said)... then again I feel troubles begin when you repeatedly infer at a tolerant Taoist web-site that Buddhism "trumps" other traditions because they are stuck or lacking in the ways you've mentioned. If we were a group of Buddhists under a school and vows and you were the guru then we might have to buy into your pov. or leave, but we are not nor can we forced to leave here, yet it seems you gotta keep hammering away (at those of the "brick wall") until we have finally taken your hook, line and sinker? I suggest you ponder awhile on the "Four-Fold Negation" and give many of these speculations, assertions, one-up-manships, irrefutable absolutes, etc. some space that is not in our face. Such would be closer to hitting the mark imo. Om

The word "yogi" can be used by a great number of people of various attainments or unattainments. Also the word "swami" is sometimes used by those that are not living the life of a swami and sometimes there are similar troubles with the meaning and use of the word "guru". Anyway going through the wheel is going through the wheel and not around and around the wheel as you imply, regardless of whatever tradition(s) seem lacking to you or your trumped-up ideation and projections upon same may be. Om

Steve, A lot of very good points and reminders! I don't fully agree with your first paragraph under certain conditions, for instance that which is directly connected to the truth does not and can not speak an untruth, while that which is connected through various permutations speaks various and relative truths. Exceedingly rare is the direct, billion volt like connection without interferencs but it is not non-existant. (in fact such is the fulfillment of existance) Om

"It boils down to truth is truth no matter where it comes from, but illusion should drop to the wayside" Agreed ps. VJ is pretty fast on his feet and probably has some experence as a fire walker to, so roasting same could be iffy.

Thanks for sharing that CowTao. I would add that it is not so much that a being has or holds the Compassion but that the Compassion has and holds them, (in this way the Compassion is realy the great one while the master who has made great sacrifices works as its servant) Such beings have been willingly taken over by it and have no self-willed designs on its influences or manifestation through them. Om

Actually you don't nor does anyone else need to "repeat and unpack endlessly" for any party. (even for those that keep asking or happen to be watching...)

( I also suggest you try to limit the baggage you are carrying around, example above the rest was a repeat of a repeat of a repeat...)

Excellent!

VJ, Faith and compassion are not that complicated. Some free advice: consider all your knowledge, pov's and presentations as nothing more than baggage that will not go through the "Wheel". (even though same had uses inside the wheel) Om

Faith and Grace are not that complicated. No conditioned being can reach "Mystery" or cross the "Wheel" without an element of Grace (or compassion if you prefer), thus no matter how much merit or cultivation one has in all other worlds such is not enough by itself! Also there is no exact time limit or even an exact law limit for such a crossing (although in the worlds of various laws, those laws do have to be dealt with) still the timeless and measureless Grace is greater than the laws of time and karmas, thus It is the greatest Law! One finds that out at the threshold. Btw, what I'm saying may not be of Buddhist belief but I'm vouching for it, for whatever use that be? Touching on vows: In a sense they are also refusing to lie to oneself based on one's experiential knowings that are beyond the reach of the pros and cons of intellectual manipulation and or debate. "Fear not" Truth and Joy beyond explanation remain, while all forms come and go. Om

Hello CowTao, What percentage of Buddhists do you think believe in a particular someone or "soul" going to the other side (?) as implied in yours words: "That is only one side of the deal. With the right support, it gets 'easier' upon entering the other side" I ask that because I've heard some "Buddhists" (or maybe those claiming to be Buddhists?) make the word "soul" and certain meanings related to it sound like it is used by the foolish, deluded, stupidly hopeful, misled and religiously challenged people who are following ways that are far less than what the members of Buddhism follow and who thus by forgone conclusions absolutely know the real truth about such meanings and are empowered to look down upon and easily refute -out of hand- those that have illusions about such meanings other than what they have. To me such a situation is strange since in some forms of Buddhism particular souls like Quan Yin are said to stay on the other side compassionately helping countless beings for countless eons! Om

Perhaps a saying from Sosan could be of use?: "When the deep meaning of things is not understood the mind's essential peace is disturbed to no avail. The way is perfect like vast space where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess. Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject that we do not see the true nature of things. Live neither in the entanglements of outer things, nor in inner feelings of emptiness. Be serene without striving activity in the oneness of things and such erroneous views will disappear by themselves. When you try to stop activity to achieve passivity your very effort fills you with activity. As long as you remain in one extreme or the other you will never know Oneness. Those who do not live in the single Way fail in both activity and passivity, assertion and denial"

VJ, You have shown this site time and again of your never ending, self-justified, ever-ready-bunny type antics. The "Buddha" by well recognized and historically recorded doctrine was a student of "Hindu" related renunciates and or forest dwellers of that ancient time (after he left his Hindu related life as a prince) who helped him attain the 7th liberation, after which He speaks of going on to the 8th and thus beyond their help. All of your speculations can be debated forever which is what you apparently prefer to do around here including automatically winning any and all debates with your hypnotically perpetuated pov's. Btw, thanks for proving my points about your modus-operandi.

To make matters historically simple and for agreement sake let us say the historic Buddha was the founder of Buddhism, thus he was not a "Buddhist" before he founded same. Btw, a couple of these sentences leaves a lot to be desired (lol) in their self-contradiction? Anyway I have no problem with your, "Yes, I am a Buddhist" but after that you have shown time and again that you are compelled correct everyone else on their deluded and less than Buddhist path which comes across as non-dharmic to say the least. Om

Thank you for the diplomatic reply CowTao. We can count on you for trying to be a peace maker. Note: I don't discount or under-estimate the potentail power of the internet and many of its sites to influence people in all sorts of ways at all sorts of levels. As to desires or motives of others... I admit I'm not a good shrink and have gone to far at times in pointing the finger, but the "harsh" effect and general intent of certain Buddhist related proclamations made by certain people are fairly obvious, - regardless of any of the underlying details and or personal stuff related to their desires or motives about same. Om

CowTao, I think you are fairly easy to get along with as in flexible, thoughtful, and not very combative. Then again you do express your bias from time to time which is your right.... Like in, "Which explains why threads of this nature, accusations of buddhist fanaticism, makes no sense. Looks like it was started as a deliberate attempt to cause some sort of schism. A grave error, indeed" It was started as a deliberate attempt to counter a certain fanatical type Buddhist "schism" caused by elements here that often go to far. This is a tolerant Taoist site but people coming here and getting hammered with dubiously motivated harpings that try to use or co-opt Buddhist doctrine to over-ride everyone and everthing is not where it is at imo... Btw, as you know from some of my past posts I appreciate a great deal of the various Buddhist teachings. (especially Zen and Alan Watts type presentations) It would be a "grave error" to roll over and die by those who would force-feed their interpretation of Buddhism in cult like ways, which it was not meant to be. Om