3bob

do you know your web cam was left on and we caught ya dancing...

Nope, there is no disconnect ime. For instance: (and in my interpretation which may not work for others) In the 8 jhanas to the "beyond" of the 8th there are no disconnects, yet the "beyond" is not dependent upon those 8 for if it was then a complete end to suffering would not be possible; btw counter to some interpretations I'd say a complete end to suffering takes more than just insight. (for where do insights take place if not in consciousness, the finest of aggregates?) Om Shanti, Om Shanti, Om Shanti Om

a rhino ... or something like that, hehehe http://wayist.org/ttc%20compared/chap50.htm

Hello Manitou, Agreed with the point about being first - to a point, yet there is also the saying from Mk 4:21 "And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?"

...or worse?

Death dies, that is the greater secret in plain sight. Further, there is no wisdom in making some kind of grandiose sounding show around such. Om

The idea of finding our particular "western" spiritual root is interesting, then again when all of the roots are more or less inter-woven in various ways how much time does one have to spend in separating out or cutting from that massive conglomeration a particualr root and then proclaim that this is our original start from a few particular "germs" palnted 2500 years ago by such and such...? That is at least problematic if not impossible imo, btw who knows how or what other influences those people of many years ago were under? Surely they to borrowed from other forms of teachings or roots. Also, all this talk about being asleep - so the hell what? For instance: surely Mr. G (among others) were also deeply "asleep" compared to certain cosmic type beings or certain teachers, (per his alcoholic indulgences and womanizing) thus any of our half-ass esoteric games of comparison as to who is more awake and thus not sleep, or who is more enlightened than so and so are badly missing the mark. (of getting on with practice) Om

ok, there are conditions where the term legion could be used as such, but my point was that the term man is not defined with, by, or limited to such a generalization or stereo-type. Om

Devoid, if you are mainly talking about VJ I suggest making that clear, for asides are mainly underhanded. Imo VJ mainly needs to start and have his own website. And VJ you could even name it: "VJ's all consuming dependent orgination blog, anything less is ignorance"

Very true and insightful. (and one the ways a true teacher helps us)

... as for Mr. G's ramblings about "I", careful, those are often mis-interpreted in a negative way. Not unlike how aspects of Buddhism can sometimes be mis-interpreted in a negative way. (btw. in later years Mr. G. backed off of many of his absolute type statements found in various earlier accounts) - for there has to be a will woven (or I) to surrender to a greater will (or I) Om

Man's name is not "legion"; that is one of the names used for beings that serve the abyss, although some "men" may join up with those forces.

That sounds very painful to me Kate, sorry.

Kate, How does a mother see her children...? The Earth mother is a great soul of depth and heart breaking beauty, also a great weaver of light along with her many helpers. She is wounded now but un-broken and will prevail against the dark wave. Those of us that listen closely can hear her healing and uplifting song woven through all of life here... and some of her children are now Beings of golden-white radiance standing by her side with their indomitable will. Om

Just dropping in, hope you don't mind? With a handle like John Zen can I assume you've studied various Buddhist sutras? They are full of stories of Beings without physical brains and yet plently of consciousness that the Buddha gave his personal eye witness to... were such accounts all unprovable nonsense to you and if so what else along with them? Om

one analogy: a sudden crack (or opening) could more or less instantaneously give one a helpful look-see through a shell, but it takes a lot of work to keep that crack from resealing and also enlarging it to the point where one could walk through and not go back. (also imagine an eggshell being chipped away from the inside and also being chipped away from the outside, and suddenly when the inner and outer chippers meet all is well! I believe that in Zen many spend a lifetime in preping for what is sometimes called "instantaneous", but you will have to ask further of those on that path. Om

that was easy straight from the shitter,

what goes up can go down, far more so without yama and niyama.

Agreed that details (which are more or less unknown by others anyway) don't need mentioning but not agreed that the principle of the matter should not be mentioned - otherwise I think there is more of chance that people could take it as being talked down to. (an unfortunate permutation where many have a blanket rejection of being trustful or trusting those that have worked through and overcome much. Om

What's going on/what's happening brother, Marvin Gaye http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9KC7uhMY9s

...and shall it be mentioned that there is not a single Sage that ever attained sage-hood without going through or making and overcoming every single error and weakness mentioned? (besides the many other forms of error or weakness not mentioned) Om

On second thought maybe a Buddhist-shrink could be of help to you?

Hi Kate, Glad the quote was of use to you. I'd say or also add that it means like steadfast-rememberence of what he is pointing to, along with a final degree where rememberence type help methods related to the tools of consciousness are no longer needed since what he is pointing to then fully takes over. Om

VJ, detach from your conceptual fixations.