3bob

Ah, but to de-personify is akin to de-souling in my pov.. Thus all this talk of "impersonal enlightenment" is partialy missing the mark since there is also a personal or soul aspect that goes along with the impartial/impersonal aspect of laws.... with Grace being the highest Law that works with a person or with a soul. Om

MH, the following partly relates my pov, The Earth as purity of nature is a very large soul (so to speak) of a different order besides the order of souls known as mankind; Her beauty, power, goodness, healing harmony and truth are not limited to common human interpretations of those qualities. Does she care? I'd say her quintessential nature is to care, which in no way negates what mankind calls the "laws of nature" taking place on more permutated and karmic levels; anyway for mankind to go further and see the fullness of all laws at work is not so easy but still possible as mentioned in the TTC, for instance "Earth follows Heaven" is alluding to laws at work or in effect. Om

The Great Sage is a very wise and old child of the universe's matrix, also a "steward" and a "King" (as in having those qualities or virtues along with others)... thus from my pov. he/she knows the Tao and through them the Tao does care far beyond only the limits of human understanding. "The Tao is hidden and nameless; Yet it alone knows how to render help and to fulfill." T.T.C. 41 Further, if there were no caring as related to virtue(s) then the following chapter, among others would not be true for then it would be every rat on the street for himself: T.T.C. 27. GOOD walking leaves no track behind it; Good speech leaves no mark to be picked at; Good calculation makes no use of counting-slips; Good shutting makes no use of bolt and bar, And yet nobody can undo it; Good tying makes no use of rope and knot, And yet nobody can untie it. Hence, the Sage is always good at saving men, And therefore nobody is abandoned; Always good at saving things, And therefore nothing is wasted. This is called "following the guidance of the Inner Light." Hence, good men are teachers of bad men, While bad men are the charge of good men. Not to revere one's teacher, Not to cherish one's charge, Is to be on the wrong road, however intelligent one may be. This is an essential tenet of the Tao. Om

About that last sentence MH, I suggest we consider the implications of Chapter 25 of the T.T.C.: "...To be great is to go on, To go on is to be far, To be far is to return. Hence, "Tao is great, Heaven is great, Earth is great, King is great." Thus, the king is one of the great four in the Universe. Man follows the ways of the Earth. The Earth follows the ways of Heaven, Heaven follows the ways of Tao, Tao follows its own ways."

...if you join make sure the written terms are very clear and as to what type of training you'll get after BT. I don't know about such options (or contracts) these days but many years ago soon after I joined they tried to switch me to a different field using pep talks and lots of pressure while I was in BT, I said no to the officer who was trying very hard to talk me into it, which is not so easy when you are green and they say the switch will be great in various ways. Going in as an officer may be a better bet...?

I did a four year hitch in the USAF and an additional year of Army National Guard. (Vietnam era & later) Anyway, I'd suggest the Air Force or Navy if you want more of a tech type of support job (which may lead to a job when you get out) or the Army and Marines, which also have tech type jobs but there you must be far more prepared to rough it out on the ground, be stationed close to combat zones, and possibly become involved in close combat. (thus very hard and dangerous duty) Most of the standard warm-up and strecth exercises along with push-ups are good; then lots of fast walking and stairs, also some steady jogging. (give your body time to adapt now while you still can because in BT they don't give you time) Start getting up at 4:30-5:00 in the morning 6 days a week, because that is how it's gonna be in BT. Be prepared to be screamed at and cut down ... for apparently no good. reason. Be prepared to be marching a lot and making various formations, since you will have no schedule of your own. Period. (marching can be fun if you are not exhausted and have sore feet which is somewhat of an unlikely situation during BT and or at other times) Have private compartments for the mind and emotions to tuck things away, since there won't be a democratic process and open discussions for you to air your pov's.. Have some good buddies to talk with and share support, because if you get to tightly wound-up and are by yourself a lot you will crack or break. Don't dwell to much on the future, just make it through each day in BT in decent shape and suddenly it will be over, and then off to your tech school along with some off-duty time for yourself and buddies. Of course you will probably have to work with lots of guys, and that is a very big area in itself! (with all of the ramifications to deal with!) There is unhealthy pride and also healthy pride, both in the service and out. I wish you the healthy kind Om

"The heart is a lonely hunter", always searching on and on until the Truth is found that was never really lost! (thus not limited by names or mental definitions of various paths such as "immortal", "Bodhisattva" or whatever, and when that is met then the heart knows beyond all doubt) Om

Nothing new there, and you are still trying to sound as if you discovered something that Mr O. hadn't already fleshed out in the early 1900's as MR. G's student. (and also later when Mr. O compiled all his notes related to same)

Sick Drew, sickly played Drew. (and I don't have to suspend that judgment regardless of what moderators do or don't do)

"The 4th Way"...it has some fine spin offs, and some very sicko cult spin offs. Imo Drew co-opted/copied much of Mr.O's work (a key student of Mr.G's) and talks here like that work is his own?!

Most of the human forces and or names that seem to be behind a lot of this stuff are nothing more than pawns, pawns to the dark spirit of malice and hunger for power; that dark spirit has no real root and will fail, and although some great harms are done to the Earth and to many Beings they will not be broken for such harms shall be resisted and undone by those rooted in the truth of the Way. Also, there really is no checking out and kissing your butt goodbye but there is a great reckoning in which we will reap what we have sown! (Taoist or anyone else for that matter) Om

. ------------------- "suspended judgment" ------------------- .

Rewards: If someone doesn't have their back against the wall (via heavy judgemnt) they can also look at other options.

Very good quote MH !

T.T.C. 13. "Welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise. Prize calamities as your own body." Why should we "welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise"? Because a lowly state is a boon: Getting it is a pleasant surprise, And so is losing it! That is why we should "welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise." Why should we "prize calamities as our own body"? Because our body is the very source of our calamities. If we have no body, what calamities can we have? Hence, only he who is willing to give his body for the sake of the world is fit to be entrusted with the world. Only he who can do it with love is worthy of being the steward of the world".

"Off topic"... MH, are you all that sure of topics around here? I'm not. Thus staying on topics around here often includes constant drifting and morphing to various random, wild, hairy, cool, calm, uncollected, mean, serene, lean, fat, overdone, bloated, clean, crisp, sharp, newbie, deeply profound, lusty, black magic motivated, white purity, empty sky, mud, middle-of-the-road, depressed, normal, blues, cats, bliss, believers, non-believers, agnostics, troubles at home, bad food, sexual manipulations, intellectual soaring, science, mystery, politically correct nuances, bold and or brash truisms and whatever else somebody happens to be into that comes along; besides or under the cover of topics. (imo) Om

"Attain to utmost Emptiness..." from T.T.C. Chapter 16, - Ut-oh I don't want to turn into a vehicle either but I don't mind one as a means to an end. (thus if I crash my vehicle into somebody elses the cops get involved and my trip is delayed. .

"But I will say this right now: the knowledge Lao and Chuang referred to mostly is that knowledge that changes man's original nature". From MH - The original nature is Tao - "man" is one of its forms, that form has the potential to sychronize to the realization and knowledge of Tao, which does not change. Om

"loose lips sink ships" .

I wasn't joking but it seems you may have taken it that way... I'm not sure though!?

"GIVEN TO THE DYING' "This body is not me; I am not caught in this body, I am life without boundaries, I have never been born and I have never died. Over there the wide ocean and the sky with many galaxies All manifests from the basis of consciousness. Since beginningless time I have always been free. Birth and death are only a door through which we go in and out. Birth and death are only a game of hide-and-seek. So smile to me and take my hand and wave good-bye. Tomorrow we shall meet again or even before. We shall always be meeting again at the true source, Always meeting again on the myriad paths of life" ~Thich Nhat Hanh, No Death, No Fear (taken from the Anguttura Nikaya sutra) (also quoted for the living, 3bob)

Righto MH

MH is basically and always a pretty good sport, which is why he is so easy to be loved by us. Om

Mt 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! Thus demonic forces abuse the 3rd eye in twisted ways. If a person has it open and can not close it then one does not have control, and when one does not have control and is without a protective state of being and protective helpers then one is unprepared to deal with things that may not go very wrong!

Ralis, Good to hear you enjoying yourself if you mind me saying so?