3bob

Well there is no way I can keep up with the tit for tat, hopefully you guys are having some fun?

VJ, Are you compelled to butt heads no matter what? You silly wabbit.

"May all beings (including silly wabbits) be happy" Om Tat Sat, Om Tat Sat, Om Tat Sat, Om...

I didn't read all of the back and forth along these lines but I'll barge in here and say that enlightenment is also the natural nature spoken of in the Upanishads and other Vedic/Hindu teachings... as to defining "enlighenment" that is a big nut to try and crack conceptually which often ends up in butting heads. (and often in breaking the foundational law of non-violence common to both traditions) Om

Yes Sir, the Theravadin Maha-parinibbana Sutta. "Anyway, different schools arose due to many reasons, not just one." Agreed, we could name the reason the law of permutations... which apply to all things in time and space. Om btw, I mostly like short posts, no way in heck can I keep up with you guys and the vast amount of goings on.

"Of course, it's too late for the Buddha to become a Taoist but there is still time for you."

how easy to explain things away.

"Rest and unrest derive from illusion; with enlightenment there is no liking and disliking. All dualities come from ignorant inference. They are like dreams or flowers in the air; foolish try to grasp them. Gain and loss, right and wrong: such thoughts must finally be abolished at once. If the eye never sleeps, all dreams will naturally cease. If the mind makes no discriminations, the ten thousand things are as they are, of single essence. To understand the mystery of this One-essence is to be released from all entanglements. When all things are seen equally the timeless Self-essence is reached. No comparisons or analogies are possible in this causeless, relationless state". Sosan A Zen Patriarch using the word "Self" and "essence" a lot, which I'm sure some will rationalize away... but not me.

Hello LS, You made an under-standable mis-understanding concerning my eariler post where I could have used the word "movement" instead of fast, but I meant the same thing: "simply stop all time and all space and stand in absolute stillness that is absolutely fast" (meaning absolute movement), thus we apparently have some agreement related to your first paragraph in the quote above. And part of a relaed quote by Sosan: Consider movement stationary and the stationary in motion, and both the state of movement and the state of rest disappear. When such dualities cease to exist Oneness itself cannot exist. To this ultimate finality no law or description applies..." Bob

LS, That link does save a lot of time for people not having to re-say or re-type the same things over again, but for me it does not resolve anything about various interpretations... Btw, even if the various texts were perfect recordings of the Buddha's teachings that still does mean that there is perfect understanding of same in the people who may hear or re-state it. This is pointed out in the sutras themselves with one major example being that of Ananda missing several key things while being in the immediate presence of the Buddha!! The same type of problem takes place in most all teachings that have ever been given on this planet. Having said that I agree about experience being of primary importance, otherwise such is mainly a passing intellectual exercise at best; yet what I've also noticed is that we don't hear much about Buddhist Lamas and Hindu Rishis, who have all sorts of experience, meeting for debates or even to find common ground... apparently most of them are just as entrenched in their own schools and sects as the everyday masses are or perhaps more so? (regardless of or perhaps because of "experience") Good luck finding your way or the Way people.

No contradictions? Yet there are several major and a great many minor schools of Buddhism that do not agree on certain doctrines... If I ever join a school I will then change to their view, which the Buddha also warned about. The "Self" which is not what it may seem, can be located (in a sense) in this life but not in the way that many of us may think: For instance here is part of a text that probably you and many Buddhists will deny, thus another contradiction in interpretation: "...The monks were taken aback. They said, Honored One, according to all you have taught and spoken, we have been asked to cultivate selflessness, leading to the dropping of the idea of a self. But now you tell us we should cultivate the idea of a selfwhat is the meaning of this? Good, replied the Buddha. You are now asking about meaning. You should know that, like a doctor, you should find the right medicine for an illness. It is as a doctor that I observed the aliments of the world. I saw that ordinary people believe they have a self and that whoever they meet has a self. They think of the self as within the body. But it is not like that. Because it is not like that, I have shown the fallacy of all ideas of self and shown that the self is not there in the way it is thought to be. In everything I have said I have shown that the self is not as people think of it, for this is expedient means, the right medicine. But that doesn't mean that there is no self. What is the self? If something is true, is real, is constant, is a foundation of a nature that is unchanging, this can be called the self. For the sake of sentient beings, in all the truths I have taught, there is such a self. This, monks, is for you to cultivate. Mahaparinirvana Sutra

our minds trace eddies left behind on water to try and find out what made them, but such eddies and whatever made them quickly disappear back into the water...

Xabir, Thanks for sharing your very well studied interpretation/information. But much of it I have not studied or know of... To put things in simple terms, I do not believe there can ever be total cessation per-se, for then even Buddha nature would cease; although there can be total cessation of suffering, and cessation of any returning to suffering. Thus what connection remains as you've apparently said it doesn't - I'd say the connection to or with Buddha nature in all, which does not perish. Om

"Simply see each moment in its non-dual arising..." by LS A moment is a moment in the flows of time and space, simply stop all time and all space and stand in absolute stillness that is absolutely fast, thus without an arising or a falling; that my friend is along the lines of the inherent, non-dual eternal. Om

Peace and Love also MH,

Excerpt, by Alex Bunardzic: "...What is this nothingness business then all about? In Buddhism, Zen, and Enlightenment nothingness is refered to as the "great void" or Sunyata, and in general, presented in the sutras and elsewhere similar to the following: The sutras often use the word "great void" to explain the significance of Sunyata. In general, we understand the "great void" as something that contains absolutely nothing. However, from a Buddhist perspective, the nature of the "great void" implies something which does not obstruct other things, in which all matters perform their own functions. Materials are form, which by their nature, imply obstruction. The special characteristic of the "great void" is non-obstruction. The "great void" therefore, does not serve as an obstacle to them. Since the "great void" exhibits no obstructive tendencies, it serves as the foundation for matter to function. In other words, if there was no "great void" nor characteristic of non-obstruction, it would be impossible for the material world to exist and function..."

Anyway folks back to the topic of, "sounds like a Taoist/Buddhist cross". "To deny the reality of things is to miss their reality; to assert the emptiness of things is to miss their reality. The more you talk and think about it, the further astray you wander from the truth. Stop talking and thinking and there is nothing you will not be able to know". Sosan

Actually, by demonstration you felt compelled to correct a Zen Buddhist master just in case he was incorrect and or not up to your standard, thus your school so to speak. Om

just call that V's interpretation co-opting parts of others. The Buddha can speak for Himself.

all so called universes are under what could be called the multi-verse, thus anyone going in time and space to another universe is still within the wheel of samsara. (and there is only one wheel) Thus a Buddha transcends samsara not by going to another part of it but by attaining the Absolute as spoken of by the historic Buddha.