3bob

Hello Serene Blue, I can not really explain the power of Unconditional Love, but there are signs of it everywhere around and through us both in dancing and in stillness...

All will fail if there is only a mechanical like "karma" taking place in a mechanical like multi-verse; but the "Mystery" is deeper than such mechanics alone, although such mechanics are aspects of it.

"Before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and waters as waters. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and waters are not waters. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and waters once again as waters" - Ching-yuan

Spelling? How is the title wrong? Anyway Susan you can use the "full editor" to go back and also edit a title. Om

"The topic"? Who really needs topics if you're given and give hugs... hehehe

Hi CowTao, Of course an aggregate is made up of parts and thus your analogy applies to the worlds of aggregates - but in my interpretation it does not apply to to the "beyond of the beyond" of "Buddha Nature".

...and thanks for starting the string and also posting many replies.

There is a teaching regarding the "Self" in the following Upanishad, but there is no mention of an "independent self" as being the Self per-se as many apparently interpret such teachings... Khandogya Upanishad, VII Prapathaka, 23rd Khanda. 23. 1. The Infinite (bhuman) is bliss. There is no bliss in anything finite. Infinity only is bliss. This Infinity, however, we must desire to understand. Sir, I desire to understand it. 24. 1. Where one sees nothing else, hears nothing else, understands nothing else, that is the Infinite. Where one sees something else, hears something else, understands something else, that is the finite. The Infinite is immortal, the finite is mortal. Sir, in what does the Infinite rest? In its own greatness - or not even in greatness. 25. In the world they call cows and horses, elephants and gold, slaves, wives, fields and houses greatness. I do not mean this, thus he spoke; for in that case one being (the possessor) rests in something else, (but the Infinite cannot rest in something different from itself) ...(my added color highlight to the original text) 1. The Infinite indeed is below, above, behind, before, right and left--it is indeed all this. Now follows the explanation of the Infinite as the I: I am below, I am above, I am behind, before, right and left--I am all this. (thus if being so where is its independent self existing separately? also added by me) 2. Next follows the explanation of the Infinite as the Self: Self is below, above, behind, before, right and left - Self is all this. He who sees, perceives, and understands this, loves the Self, delights in the Self, revels in the Self, rejoices in the Self--he becomes a Svarag, (an autocrat or self-ruler) he is lord and master in all the worlds. But those who think differently from this, live in perishable worlds, and have other beings for their rulers. 26. 1. To him who sees, perceives, and understands this, the spirit (prana) springs from the Self, hope springs from the Self, memory springs from the Self; so do ether, fire, water, appearance and disappearance, food, power, understanding, reflection, consideration, will, Mind, speech, names, sacred hymns, and sacrifices--aye, all this springs from the Self. 2. There is this verse, "He who sees this, does not see death, nor illness, nor pain; he who sees this, sees everything, and obtains everything everywhere. "He is one (before creation), he becomes three (fire, water, earth), he becomes five, he becomes seven, he becomes nine; then again he is called the eleventh, and hundred and ten and one thousand and twenty." When the intellectual aliment has been purified, the whole nature becomes purified. When the whole nature has been purified, the memory becomes firm. And when the memory (of the Highest Self) remains firm, then all the ties (which bind us to a belief in anything but the Self) are loosened." Om

Thank you also Serene Blue, you have shared a great post of fine feelings and insights! Bob

Two thumbs up Rainbow Vein,

Oops, 3bob didn't say it, he quoted it. (and forgot the quotation marks earlier) Anyway, another example along such lines: if you are swimming in an unlimited Ocean of drinking water would you also pack or tow around a separate ten gallon jug of same for drinking? (and to what purpose?)

A (third) eye witness, (from St. John) "TAKE HEART...": "10. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11. Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15. And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18. I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." Evil has no true root, it only has power through what it can steal and twist when interacting in and limited to certain realms, on the other hand it is seen by the Beings in the realms of Wisdom and Love that are working with the true root which evil is blind to. Anyway, something has gotta give and it won't be the Holy Spirit! Thank you Lord Jesus of Divine indomitable will for your supreme effort and help! Om

I wouldn't say "The One" is static in the way you apparently imply above... for the One is born of the Tao, and that is also a type of mystery, although in my interpretation not the same Mystery as the un-nameable Tao. Anyway, going by the T.T.C. "The Two" and "The Three" are born (so to speak) after the One, thus to me the teaching alludes to further processes in action (or births if you will) of the Two and The Three and then on to the Ten Thousand as being the when-and-where all of these grand dynamics and or nameable possibilities as aspects of Tao become far more discernable; with an additional idea along these lines that if the center of the wheel was not, then there would be no place for the spokes to be connected. All the multi-verses are also under the One, or the One would not really be the One. Om

That last quote as you mention, sounds to me like part of what Stig may be tyring to get at using (more or less) rhetorical methods? Imagine "The One" as already containing all time(s) and all space(s) and thus also all of the apparently future possibilities right-now. (or already in The One) Om Shanti

You're a good sport MH Hmmm, The One contains all the destinies of the many, thus the many can choose only within the One. Yet further, "Only Nothing can enter no-space" (TTC 43) Om

hehe (hopefully less than the 2 other attachments)

You are welcome. And also yes, For instance another saying I have always liked is about the beautiful lotus flower growing out and up from of the dark muck, or its 'attachment' to same...

Nice thoughts MH. I'd add that all that was, is, and will be or "what can be" are already in the One. And to attain the One would be to attain a very great state, and or to have completed a vast number of steps, although not all the steps on a journey of ten thousand miles. "Where am I?" Or where are we? For instance at this site we often talk about advanced and very far-out stuff, yet that is often getting way ahead of the game imo and ime!!! And to get way ahead of the game (or over extendended somewhere way out there) often results in a form of suffering related to same. Om

Righto, certain types of mind blowing are neato... hehe

Hello Stig, Some lines below from the Isa Upanishad that you may find of interest in relation to your post...? "...9. Into a blind darkness they enter who are devoted to ignorance (rituals); but into a greater darkness they enter who engage in knowledge of a deity alone. 10. One thing, they say, is obtained from knowledge; another, they say, from ignorance. Thus we have heard from the wise who have taught us this. 11. He who is aware that both knowledge and ignorance should be pursued together, overcomes death through ignorance and obtains immortality through knowledge. 12. Into a blind darkness they enter who worship only the unmanifested prakriti; but into a greater darkness they enter who worship the manifested Hiranyagarbha. 13. One thing, they say, is obtained from the worship of the manifested; another, they say, from the worship of the unmanifested. Thus we have heard from the wise who taught us this. 14. He who knows that both the unmanifested prakriti and the manifested Hiranyagarbha should be worshipped together, overcomes death by the worship of Hiranyagarbha and obtains immortality through devotion to prakriti..." And another saying along these lines: From Yutang Lin, "Teaching of "Non-form" indicates non-attachment to form. Misinterpreted, it is adopted as holding to absence of form. Abiding in no forms at all, one falls into the abyss of void. Only in no grasping to form or non-form lies true liberation." Om

The "One" can be named, under and with the One the first is also last and the last is also first. Om

Thank you for the smile Swami-ji

"One of the lessons of history is that nothing is often a good thing to do and always a clever thing to say." - Will Durant

"Does a dog have Buddha nature?" http://article.wn.com/view/2009/05/15/Do_dogs_have_a_Buddha_nature/