3bob

Dogs are loyal, that is enough for them and a lot for us! Cats don't lie, that is enough for them and a lot for us!

Island? ...It's an Ocean

Thanks for your viewpoint. Btw you missed or misunderstand a step in my interpretation, either consciously or unconsciously? "insight" is fine but of the mind, even pure insight; also my interpretation is not pointing to phenomena or even non-phenomena, it is trying to point to that which can not really be pointed to or named. Maybe we should let it be since this has all been hashed about "tit for tat" in other strings. Om

"The Earth comes from the Sun and this sun comes from this galaxy and this galaxy comes from the universe and this universe comes from the multi-verse of the cosmos and this cosmos comes from" Om... "so on and so forth add infinitum..." Hello V., A modification above of your saying into my interpretation... for all is traced back to Om, and inside Om is Roaring Silence, and inside roaring silence is that which mind can not reach...so to take up mind and its impermanence as an ultimate refuge would not be a reflection of rest. Om

The "Christian sense" as you put it is not always uniform in usage of terms, for instance there is the folllowing saying: Mt 10:16 "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves".

...along the lines of opening oneself up: It does not matter what form or system you practice - you will be tested and the farther you progress the more severe will be those tests, that is until attaining the point of no-return. (or of no possibility of falling or being turned by the hunger of the abyss) Om

"When the individual is zìrán, Heaven, Earth, and Tao align in the clarity of oneness". from Stig Hi MH, Going back a few posts I apprecaite the sentence above from Stig. And I think that it also points to possible answers regarding your questions in the more recent post above. My interpretation is that when we more or less lose our way we are then being true to the permutations or to the ten thousand, (so to speak) thus identified with and or lost in the ten thousand. (or premutations "born" after the Three)... Further, to be lost in those permutations is not exactly to be un-natural - but to be more or less un-aligned and un-clear regarding the oneness and original Tao (or to try to say it another way: to the Tao being Master instead of to the "ten thousand" being Master) Also, the original nature or Tao can never truly be lost - for if such could be truly lost then all is lost. (beyond any imagining) Om

what goes up can also go down... (in a manner of speaking)

there is no proof to wrap our minds around, for such a proof is beyond mind. and who wants to give up their apparent mind for such proof anyway?

mind recognizing its place and limits is fine; far more important is Tao realizing Tao - which only it can do. Om

I see some agreement CowTao, although you slipped in a saying from a possible and perhaps a particular school of Buddhism with your, "essence-less" remark. That's naughty. Btw, as I believe you have studied the Buddha fully recogizes the truth of the Earth per well recognized sutta so I'll go with that as a sure reminder of where he is coming from. (thus not going by very many of the interpretations coming from other sources) Om

I'd say the "highest of the high" knows all views but serves only the Tao - before which all views are made naked.

Ok MH,

Who knows about "precisely" for sure? V., the recycling program is also called life and death; and btw death does die. "Fear not" Om

Holy Cow

Hello MH, From what particular point of view or what particular vantage point can Tao take or have if every-where, all at once, without separation of any kind, in any form, or from any form? Being that we are humans using a human form of communication all of our languages more or less person-ify or human-ify subjects we talk about via that medium. Thus any no-no's or yes-yes's are man-made conventions for conventional use in a conventionally agreed upon world. Anyway, I recognize the word "He" as being used in a conventional sense (although in this case pointing beyond) for neither it nor any other word can actually name the un-nameable. Just as the words, "Peace and Love" can not really name or contain the full meanings that they point to... Om

Yuan-shih T'ien-tsun -- The First Principal "He has no beginning and no end. He existed "before the void and the silence, before primordial chaos." He is self-existing, changeless, limitless, invisible, contains all virtues, is present in all places and is the source of all truth".

"The only 'time' Tao is static (unchanging) is during the 'time' of singularity". MH My interpretation is that this 'only' is right now... (for it never left )

A link to an article by Alan Watts: http://deoxy.org/w_cross.htm "Indeed, as Chesterton said, there is a closer connection between 'cosmic' and 'comic' than the mere similarity of the words!"

Glad you guys enjoyed the link

And why can't one extrapolate in such a way? For instance if a beginning student (or caretaker in this instance) has simple honesty then there is a foundation already in place for that same simple honesty being extrapolated out and also active in the most advanced and cultivated sage.

well, and for example on the human related level ask yourself who is qualified to fully take care of young kids (like 1-4 year olds) and then extrapolate that out if you will and ask yourself who is qualified and to be trusted to the ends of the earth or to the ends of the universe for the well being of all Beings? (Granted there are also intermediate levels between such)

There are reasons that untrained, untested, unproven, and thus unqualified people are not sent out to work on high voltage utility power lines... for similar reasons although in different realms such reasoning also applies to not sending out unqualified "spiritual" workers.

Affirming or negating along these lines cannot really nail such down because neither method has the full power to do so, for such methods at best can only be used to make preparations to go beyond what either method when used alone can reach. Thus being attached to or saying an affirmation process is better than a negation process or vice-a-versa - when both methods suffer from limitations can be like beating one's head against the wall and bouncing off it while trying to climb it at the same time.