3bob

Wow also MH, although I'm only semi-speechless, hehehe

From Marblehead, Okay. We will scratch paragraph two even though I do believe there is a relationship between music and the transfer of energies. I have experienced it depending on my, how to say it?, moor or mental state and the music I am listening to at the time. I can actually say that I 'became the music'. From Bob, Not sure what you mean by scratching paragraph two? Paragraph 1. "The realm of possibilities." What a concept! At any given point in time there are specific and given possibilities. We cannot exceed the limits of the present moment's possibilities. But life is not static. And neither is the realm of possibilities. What is impossible at this moment in time may become possible a few minutes, hours, days or years in the future. And the opposite is also true, what is possible at this moment in time may become impossible in the future. And this is why we should grasp opportunitites when they present themselves. Who knows that we may never again have the opportunity to attain to what we let slip by for whatever the reason; often, I would suggest, out of fear of what might happen. Agreed, and such is so for all "things" limited to certain developments in time and space. Personally, I think that when viewed from the point of Tao there are no limits to the realm of possibilities. Anything is possible - it is just that many are highly unlikely. But who knows? Afterall some of the dinosaurs developed wings and feathers and are now flying around all over the world. Who woulda' thunk? Agreed, although not the part about "highly unlikely" since in Tao "all and everything" or the One, Two, Three and Ten thousand are all happening right now. Now, the only thing I can say about 'reality' is based on what I am able to observe and/or rationalize thoughtfully. So I am limited by what my senses are capable of percieving. I can't talk about intuition, even though I do hold to the concept, because intuition cannot be rationalized, IMO. Peace & Love! ..."because intuition cannot be rationalized", and neither can the "peace that passeth understanding" nor Love that is unconditional and boundless, and it is well that such is so! Om

My view is that the great Master does nothing except maintain what has been established... that is in the sense that the Spirit does everything through them while they, with the help of Spirit maintain, change, and or improve the particular matrix or lineage for Spirit's work to be done that they are part of. Thus the Spirit really chooses the students and the levels of revelation that they will be exposed to and schooled in. Also, there really are no secrets except what could be called the secrets of twistable mind powers, which are nothing compared to the wisdom, love and power of Spirit and it's all consuming Truth, which are always in plain sight hidden very deeply right under our noses, thus often being passed up for more colorful karmic complications. Om

Ok, but do you know of anyone who has actually nailed down and thus delineated "reality or the realm of possiblities"? I don't, nor have I done so for myself. So I see some difference in speculations related to a way beyond compared to devolving to a way less (or to a less than wholesome humanity) when it could be an evolution to a "way beyond" of super-normal or Sage like humanity. Anyway, Ouspensky also studied music and it's relationships to energies - and imo that is a very interesting work! Btw, now and then we come across people who have copied much of his work without giving him his due credit... Btw #2 I'm not really qualified to discuss excerpts related to his work, although I feel ok in slightly touching on some of it while giving references for anyone to look further at his materials for themselves. Om

One name used for that 'force' within all souls or Beings is Spirit. (Spirit which is not born and which does not die) But now we're starting to cross-up systems... I don't know very much about Mr. Ouspensky's (along with Mr G.) work but a lot has been spun out of it, apparently some being of very fine, wholesome groups and some being of very sick, twisted cults. So as usual be careful. Here is a link with some information about P.D. Ouspensky: http://www.bookrags.com/printfriendly/?p=lens&u=P._D._Ouspensky One book of his I appreciate is, "A New Model of the Universe" Principles of the Psychological Method in Its Application to Problems of Science, Religion, and Art. New York, 1971. (published late?, since much of it is based on his work from the earlier 1900's)

Hello MH, You may have come across the "personality types" related to the enneagram? Whereas Ouspensky went into other aspects of the enneagram in the earlier 1900's, and his work is sometimes referred to as, "fragments of an Unknown teaching". (parts of which can be mind blowing)

Maha-parinibbana Sutta: Last Days of the Buddha Translated from the Pali by Sister Vajira & Francis Story (an excerpt) "The Blessed One's Prompting 1. Then the Blessed One, getting ready in the forenoon, took bowl and robe and went into Vesali for alms. After the alms round and meal, on his return, he spoke to the Venerable Ananda, saying: "Take up a mat, Ananda, and let us spend the day at the Capala shrine." "So be it, Lord." And the Venerable Ananda took up a mat and followed behind the Blessed One, step by step. 2. And the Blessed One went to the Capala shrine and sat down on the seat prepared for him. And when the Venerable Ananda had seated himself at one side after he had respectfully saluted the Blessed One, the Lord said to him: "Pleasant, Ananda, is Vesali; pleasant are the shrines of Udena, Gotamaka, Sattambaka, Bahuputta, Sarandada, and Capala." 3. And the Blessed One said: "Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. [21] The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it." 4. But the Venerable Ananda was unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting, given by the Blessed One. As though his mind was influenced by Mara, [22] he did not beseech the Blessed One: "May the Blessed One remain, O Lord!. May the Happy One remain, O Lord, throughout the world-period, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men!" 5. And when for a second and a third time the Blessed One repeated his words, the Venerable Ananda remained silent. 6. Then the Blessed One said to the Venerable Ananda: "Go now, Ananda, and do as seems fit to you." ------------------------- If one accepts verse 3 above then it points beyond a natural or normal human life span of around 70-100+ years, thus the Buddha did have what could be called super-natural ability or that which was very far beyond normal human ability! Btw, I don't know why some Buddhists seem to go out of their way to discount or even deny such powers which an enlightened one could use with wisdom and compassion? Anyway, to me this part of the sutta describes or points to an immortality that could last and or be extended for a very, very long time, namely what is referred to as a "world period" which I take to mean most of a kalpa: "Time in Buddhist cosmology is measured in kalpas. Originally, a kalpa was considered to be 4,320,000 years. Buddhist scholars expanded it with a metaphor: rub a one-mile cube of rock once every hundred years with a piece of silk, until the rock is worn away -- and a kalpa still hasn’t passed! During a kalpa, the world comes into being, exists, is destroyed, and a period of emptiness ensues. Then it all starts again". (exact years for such periods are debateable but most would agree they are very long) To me such immortality is possible, although the need and reason would have to be very compelling - thus not something for every Being. Further, with the Buddha completing his task of establishing the Buddhist Dharma the need for him to stay in form of some kind was no longer a major concern; and His REST was well earned!!

What if one became "better" to the point of exceeding the maximum design potential of a tool, then to go any further that tool would have to be set down? (granted such a setting down could be a very long ways down the road)

Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that, that was a fine way to say this and that!

Enlightenment is the truest desire and goal of meaning, immortality by itself (so to speak) is not although it may or may not become a fringe benefit of and tool used by enlightenment.

all fine and useful tools but even the best of such tools also needs memory, yet who of us would dare to set down memory after the tools have done their respective jobs?

"I don't know" is a good way to be... it means there is no 'stuckness'; in many ways, knowing puts an end to wonderment. Your sentence above is pointing towards a great deal that can't really ever be nailed down, and that is well...

Yes. And there are a great number of accounts of people having some experience in this area.

why not?

Some quotes: Thus, how could we ever really stay pissed off when there are so many better things to do? (like run on the beach with unbound and exuberant abandon... )

I'll second that

Then again "saviors" can and do sometimes help in certain and special ways (without them ever making a fuss about it and being so trustworthy that one fully trusts them!) they can even compassionately suspend and or absorb some degree of karma of people or students in serious trouble who can then recover enough to get their feet back on the ground and do the work as mentioned. Btw, a Taoist reference to consider: "Hence, the Sage is always good at saving men" T.T.C. 27

It would be worse than just boring if not working for or with the Tao in some ways and trying to work only for oneself!

Well said MH

I don't know... the way I take the Buddha's teachings and some of these terms is as follows: If the "condition" (that to me is more than just a viewpoint) which is pointed to in the Undana Sutta was impermanent and or linked to a dependence on interdependent origination then it to would be of and bound to suffering, but since it is not - it is free of the sufferings inherent to impermanent things and thus likewise is also free of any dependence on the interdependence of originations that is inherent to all dualistically arising and falling things. "It is the eternal" condition so deeply and profoundly simple and pure that all of this conceptual stuff can easily take one far from it, yet it remains. How that compares or not to what you are saying or implying CowTao I'm not sure? Nor am I really wired for these various Buddhist terms, so it's kind of like cross referencing meanings for me when trying to communicate along these lines. Good day P.S. I see a Being like Quan Yin as practicing a type of immortality so to speak, where she is still able to interact directly within the wheel to help Beings suffering there!

Ok, I'll take that as half of the description: "Early Buddhism acknowledged both a literal and "psychological" interpretation of Mara. Mara is described both as an entity having a literal existence, just as the various deities of the Vedic pantheon are shown existing around the Buddha, and also is described as a primarily psychological force - a metaphor for various processes of doubt and temptation that obstruct religious practice".

Hi CowTao, No offense meant and I may be getting away from the context of what you are saying (?) but I don't agree with your apparent implication or inference about impermanence being the most important lesson or point of the Buddhas teachings - compared to when one hears of the "end of sorrow" as quoted below: "This condition I call neither arising nor passing away, niether dying nor being born. It is without form and without change. It is the eternal, which never originates and never passes away. To find it is the end of sorrow". Udana Sutta, the Buddha. Good day

Thank you for the information Vajrahridaya.

Hi MH, That is a valid point of yours depending on the cases. For me it's no longer hope or belief, which btw I feel have purpose, in my case I've seen and verified with my own eye. (with help) Om