3bob

Well, if the "silver cord" is cut then you pretty much know that your "earth" body and the conditioned brain that you thought you were, will then come under the strictly physical laws of decay since certain energies that were connected to it before will no longer sustain it from the soul. (this is from an expeierence although I'm not an expert at all in this area) Such is not unlike the physical manifestation of a fetus being nourished through the umbilical cord of their mother. (which obviously can not be cut before it has all the key elements and enough biological integration to exist on its own as a new born baby, who also has a "silver cord" soul connection) God Bless the children. Om

A why? For without Love this is all more or less the, "Vanity of vanities" Om

Hi MH, I don't agree with the idea about everyone being bound by physical death. Why? Because it all boils down to the fact that the physical body is a weaving of energy and a great master could re-weave or keep that body woven together; that is if the spiritual need and purpose were great enough! Then again, having and maintaining a physical body is not the only or most important point(!), since at that degree of evolution one would be and or have integrated and attained a great soul/energy body which is what ultimately keeps the physical body going in the first palce! Such is how the Beings of the invisble realms weave so many forms together - with a divine song of living energy. This Earth Herself is a Mother soul of a different order than we are who keeps this weaving together with an exceedingly beautiful, subtle and deeply powerful song of energy, btw she also many helper spirits! And no, I didn't make any of that up, it's all right there to be witnessed and verified through the "inner eye", whereas the physical eyes only see the last of what is a very long-line of energy manifestation chains which end up becoming the physical. (thus if the subtle and foundational energies are not manintained and or woven as alluded to above, then I would agree with you that the lesser pyhsical limitations and laws would be in force or effect and under those conditions the physical would "die" after some so called "normal" amount of time, and such seems to be or sounds to me like what your only viewpoint is on the subject?) Om

"....The only regret I have regarding this thread is that we spent too much time discussing Jesus when the initial post pertained to someone else. But like I said, I rarely refuse to discuss subjects regarding life philosophies" MH --------------------------- Hello MH, I to apprecaite your willingness and efforts to engage with me and everyone else here! I think the initial post did pertain to "life philosophies" (or principals) and it did include the line "do not fear death", thus in a way it sounds to me like you are doing another one of your double-takes since we had been talking about overcoming death which was not limited by me (or by you) to Master Jesus. Thus I feel that one of the principal discussion points of the initial post was in play, regardless if the name Jesus came up and which was used by me as just one example of someone who has overcome the fear of death, (and or its effects) I to am not into reading a bunch of "occurances" like you mention, although if I do review such I can cross check them with my core feelings and experiences to see if they ring true to me... but I don't need anyone to try and prove such to me which would more or less be a troublesome exercise, since I already have the proof inside me. Om and good day Bob

A fine quote below Apepch7... thanks for sharing it earlier "After seeing the Solitary, he could abolish the distinctions of past and present. After abolishing the past and present, he was able to enter there where life and death are no more, where killing does not take away life, nor does giving birth add to it. He was ever in accord with the exigencies of his environment, accepting all and welcoming all, regarding everything as destroyed, and everything as in completion. This is to be 'secure amidst confusion,' reaching security through chaos." "Where did you learn this from?" asked Nanpo Tsekuei. "I learned it from the Son of Ink," replied Nu Yu, "and the Son of Ink learned it from the Grandson of Learning, the Grandson of Learning from Understanding, and Understanding from Insight, Insight learned it from Practice, Practice from Folk Song, and Folk Song from Silence, Silence from the Void, and the Void learned it from the Seeming Beginning." Om

"...I recall it being written that while he was on the cross (pole) dying look to the sky and ask "God, why have you forsaken me?"" MH That is only part of what He said (and imo as his very last shred of doubt) and if it is left at that then the main context is lost, for He also said something else - but maybe you prefer for it to be left at that? (while also pleading in a way that you haven't read the text in a long time?) Om

MH, Apparently you do not accept that your "beliefs" and or my "beliefs" about death are more or less opinions or ideas for one-self - which imo remains so until proven or disproven within and or through our deepest inner-experiences beyond any of our ifs, ands or buts types of doubts; thus until then an agnostic type of position makes reasonable sense to me. I'll bet high that you have not found a single shred of evidence of the kind you've mentioned to disprove the things related to death that we've touched on and which great teachers have also come out and revealed to various degrees. (btw. their given accounts have been documented as to dates, times, places and by many a witness also certain types of debatable scientific evidence along these lines is around but that is not really the point since such still has to be honestly proven or disproven within ourselves and the only one who can do that is ourselves, beyond any of our cherished notions for or against. Om

Hi MH, Imo that sounds like another double-take type of statement on your part since you state that your "fact" is also what you believe, which implys to me that you have not verifed one way or the other for yourself the ability of Golden Beings to overcome death? (an overcoming where one sees death die) Further, imo one without verifcation of such -one way or the other- would then through the use of reasoning arrive at some type of agnostic like position... although for those who do not want to arrive at an agnostic type of position on this subject that is also your right; for I to don't want to change anyone's position. - But considering that this is mainly a "Tao" website and that the Tao Teh Ching and related major teachings have in my understanding (and in that of many others) several alludings to of the actual and thus not the metaphoric overcoming of death, I then wonder where the majority of site members stand on this subject and why? Btw, and again MH, I'm not speaking from beliefs or hopes but from a verification, and there are scores of 1st hand verifcations shared by a great many others who are far, far better qualified to speak on the subject than a me. Of course they would not beat the subject up for the sake of argument like we have to some degree. Om

Well frankly it doesn't seem that I have to do much to present the idea, since MH has more or less done that himself along with and through the use of various opinions and counter-type intellectual arguments which imo are also ok to a point... but in relation to this subject I didn't mean metaphorically, hopefully, or in long standing memories and talk of doctrines or teachings in regards to such Beings; thus not in manner of speaking when it comes to overcoming death as the great golden beings have done! I have tried to make it clear that I meant in fact and in act and not as you have recently interpreted such for the context of our exchanges, although for yourself it is your right to keep your particular interpretation, but again that is not where I'm coming from. Om

Hi MH, I don't see how that can be when several posts ago you said the opposite about Master Jesus? (as in "failure - screwed up, and dead") So which is it? And if we don't know 1st hand one way or the other then imo we should consider an agnostic like position, or a four-fold negation like position, or the natural and giving ways of the Earth/Tao type of position, etc.. Bob

"Golden Being" souls are spoken of and in common to most or all of the peaceful and loving mystical/spiritual traditions, and Beings such as these have overcome death. (which to me, although in a different way also includes Taoism and certain spiritual/warrior traditons, for instance an account of the Gloden Being is given by the founder of Aikido) Further, to me Jesus is also one of those elder souls and more alive right now - as are the rest of them than we can hardly imagine. Om, and forever thank you for your help Elder ones.

Hi MH, Your two statements about Master Jesus do not quite compute to me? Anyway, imo and studies I think Jesus knew very well that much of his teachings would be co-opted by the forces of the world; and that is what I can understand many people having problems with including myself - although not with the golden soul known as Jesus and his key sayings! (like the "Sermon on the Mount") Om

Hi Marblehead, Please take some time to at least re-read one of main Christian gospels of say of St. John before entertaining interpretations that Jesus himself was forcing the Jews or anyone else for that matter, to do anything... Many know Him as the "Good Shepard", and a good shepard does not lord it over on anyone.

Rules: Rules as related to or given as valid warnings can be very helpful. Thus by following certain "rules" even partially one may only lose the tip of a finger compared to having an arm chopped off (as a drastic example to speak) - which obviously would be much more difficult and un-fortunate to deal with!

After all the do not's have been done, and do's haven't been done - then one gains some 1st hand expeirence of what it is like to miss the mark of such a list. Thus the main point to me is to quit repeating that which you've already learned is un-fortunate! Btw. in going through some of the items on this list is there anyone in the multi-verse who can claim they were perfect after the first time of going through same? (I don't hink so... )

Hello Richard, I agree with the drift what you say - although I see most possible forms of "harnessing" the Tao as actually being a harnessing and or attunement with aspects of the Tao or the energies that arise or result from what are named as the Two, the Three, etc... for only the Tao can directly contact the Tao, which makes It It. (so to speak) We as human beings can be like helpless leaves in the wind turning every which way, or we can be rooted as much as possible in the Tao which does not get turned every which way by the winds.(of the world) Is not such the great concern of all that would keep to the root? (and the vast ramifications related to same) Sages that have done their work and then retire or disappear to mountain forests or other places have earned that rest set by the standard of the Tao which they serve, thus not by our culture driven standards which we would judge them by; besides a new position is then made for their students to step into and fulfill, in other words the position that their teacher has graduated from is then turned over to the student who is also ready to graduate to the next step. Om

How about the middle? I think (lol) that the Buddhist four-fold negation statement reminds the mind that it has certain limits to its type of knowing... which may not be Taoist like you are asking about but is still of good use imo. Suggestion: some of Alan Watts older books can help one get a sort of handle on "eastern" type sayings and teachings. Have you read any of his work? Regards, Bob

hmm, imo an "ultimately" is beyond both good and evil as we may relate to them, thus with niether of such ever having been pure in an ultimate sense. Further, I have no doubt from the perspective of duality that operates in time and space that both good and evil do exist... It's like the idea that pure energy itself is not good or evil for it really just IS, but then again it may be put through good or evil filters so to speak. Om

No offense intended but it is also dangerous to be born but we do it anyway... What is interesting is that there is ultimately only one of us, as in "no other". Thus no other guru, no other student, no other universe, no other separate us and them, etc.. And if one accepts and comes to know that then what other cause of some other Being is being served? Can such a path have a dangerous razor edge(?) of course, but it also has the Spirit! Btw, I see an apparent separate as also being part of the "game" and that to serves a purpose. Good fortune

A hard to believe or accept "secret" for some (in part because of the many cases of abuse by fakes) is that it is a true guru (or sage) who is really doing the choosing and also the giving of various forms of help as needed by the student... while a student through various means of searching for what they may have some sense of but do not yet fully understand, start a process of attraction for such help to become manifest for them, thus both parties are benefitted and fulfilled through a teacher/student process. Further, and beyond all relative and changing appearences it is really the Tao or the Spirit who is doing the choosing and or giving of help through the open vessel of a true guru; ultimately this equates to Spirit unto Spirit or Love unto Love, for separation from the Ocean is ultimately untrue. I think T.T.C. chapter 41 quoted below relates to this area in its own way: "When a wise scholar hears the Tao, He practises it diligently. When a mediocre scholar hears the Tao, He wavers between belief and unbelief. When a worthless scholar hears the Tao, He laughs boisterously at it. But if such a one does not laugh at it, The Tao would not be the Tao! The wise men of old have truly said: The bright Way looks dim. The progressive Way looks retrograde. The smooth Way looks rugged. High Virtue looks like an abyss. Great whiteness looks spotted. Abundant Virtue looks deficient. Established Virtue looks shabby. Solid Virtue looks as though melted. Great squareness has no corners. Great talents ripen late. Great sound is silent. Great Form is shapeless. The Tao is hidden and nameless; Yet it alone knows how to render help and to fulfill. . .