3bob

solitude from being driven about by the great upheavals of mankind is one thing but complete solitude as in being and existing separately is impossible since all are tied together. (there are many in the one but only one in the many, and some type of service involed in that comes calling sooner or later)

Well said Dwai, Btw. everything at some time or another has been abused in the west and also in the east... another way of looking at this is like being an apprentice who can become a journeyman and then do much of their own work from there. And it is basically or almost impossible to become a journeyman without getting training, which is why all the trades like electrician, mechanic, carpenter, etc. work that way! Such is common sense regardless of those who try or have abused same. Bob

link to Anadi related to "soul", which will take one from this website although the back button should bring one back here... http://www.anaditeaching.com/teachingoneness1.htm

T.T.C. 51. TAO gives them life, Virtue nurses them, Matter shapes them, Environment perfects them. Therefore all things without exception worship Tao and do homage to Virtue. They have not been commanded to worship Tao and do homage to Virtue, But they always do so spontaneously. It is Tao that gives them life: It is Virtue that nurses them, grows them, fosters them, shelters them, comforts them, nourishes them, and covers them under her wings. To give life but to claim nothing, To do your work but to set no store by it, To be a leader, not a butcher, This is called hidden Virtue. (and those aligned with same are a grest blessing to us all)

Cats know better. We like dogs because they are so forgiving of our faults, with cats such is also true but to a lesser extent - then as a little warrior they make right use their claws and teeth.

Nietzsche is dead, The Golden ones are not.

Hi cat, Just curious, what's the story with the underwater cat?

Souls are also rafts, so to speak. (the term also has different meanings depending on which school...) Before the first and the last - young or old, great or small does not matter, no rafts can pass there. Om

"...we all need to go back to our pre-natal state of innocence to be able to live to the fullest. Even zen masters say that real wisdom lies not in accumulating knowledge but throwing away all that we have learned" Well I'd say it's not a throwing away per-se, it's sometimes likened to a gate that only the Tao can cross through, or pass through back to itself - thus the knowledges existing on this side of such a gate (and that do have purposes on this side) can not pass through the Tao gate (so to speak) and thus have to be set down for passage to be possible; yet it takes a will to pick up those knowledges which are related to ones approach to this gate in the first place and then also a will to willingly set them down and proceed, something which innocence alone is not wise enough or strong enough to do. (that was not the best use of such words, only a small attempt by a non-veteran) Also, "to be or not to be" are not options for the Tao. Om

Imo Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti benefitted a great deal (!) from that which he later deposited ungrateful poops upon; thus shame on him for doing such regardless of the gems that sometimes popped out of his mouth. In other words his strongly professed anti-ness towards various ways and people who had helped him along really has nothing to do with spiritual teachings. (like sinking or dismantling other peoples rafts while they are still using them - and since he did such to himself before he reached the shore he apparently figured it was ok and or right to advocate doing the same to others)

Birch Tree, I would not suggest letting go of the raft(s) or taking sayings like, "killing the Buddha" lightly... for such are really pointing towards the end of the journey when stepping on shore, are they not? The Buddhist teachings imply to me that the Historic Buddha fully relied upon his "rafts" or the jhanas and dharmas until he was finally able to let go of them after attaining and then moving beyond (so to speak) the "8th liberation", which he reached via key help and instructions from his "Hindu" based gurus. Thus we may talk about this and that but lets face it many of us are not very far into the liberations (as steady or maintainable states) and imo it would be foolish to let go of or dismantle workable rafts that we may use in stormy seas - whether they are our own or belong to somebody else! Also, (imo) mountains of talk about "change" are more or less missing the point if the following Buddhist verse is not taken as the most important teaching and or point of Buddhism... then again I don't belong to any school of Buddhism so I'm not an authority on it like that which you may be seeking? "There is monks, an unborn - unbecome - unmade - unfabricated. If there were not that unborn - unbecome - unmade - unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born - become - made - fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn - unbecome - unmade - unfabricated, emancipation from the born - become - made - fabricated is discerned". Shakyamuni Buddha (Nibbana Sutta, Ud 8.3, Thanissaro 1994) (further) "The Prajnaparamita-samchayagatha elaborates: If a Bodhisattva considers The psychophysical aggregates as being 'void', He is grasping a conceptual reality, Thus showing little reverance toward that which is 'unborn' ". (in Lobsang P.Lhalungpa(trans), 2006, Mahamudra -The Moonlight-, Quintessence of Mind and Meditation, by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, Wisdom Publications, p82-3) Good fortune to you Om

From what I've come across there seems to be key disagreements among various Buddhists, thus we apparently have the same types of problems, just in a differnt form from that know as "Buddhism" - as we have in other religions... For instance: " 'Buddha Nature' (the potential to be a Buddha) which is said to be present in all beings is known as the 'changeless nature' - (there's also a text by this name - The Mahayana Uttara Tantra Shastra Here's a Zen example with calligraphy: http://www.theartofcalligraphy.com/buddhanature.html

Hello Birch Tree, Your respectful inquiry is refreshing... A warning from Buddhism about itself, so to speak: The Vajrachedikā Prajñāpāramitā sūtra advises: You should not be attached to things as being possessed of, or devoid of, intrinsic qualities. This is the reason why the Tathāgata always teaches this saying: My teaching of the Dharma is to be likened unto a raft. Even the teaching of the Buddha must be relinquished; how much more so non-Dharma. (The Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā sūtra, Chapter 67,7 Therefore, The Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā sūtra warns that we should not attach to even the sermon that Buddha himself preached as the Absolute Truth. In Buddhism, it is said that obsession with Dharma is one of the sufferings that should be discarded along with obsession with oneself. If it is believed that truth has substance, this idea can cause obsession with one's own creed, resulting in conflicts of hatred and contradiction. The Majjhima nikāya also emphasizes that the scriptural words are functional tools: Does a man who has safely crossed a flood upon a raft continue his journey carrying that raft upon his head? So long as the mind is attached even to Buddha's teaching, as a basis, it will cherish the idea of 'I' and 'other'. ---------------------------------------------- Thus imo and at best we can properly use "rafts" but the rafts and what they do can never completely nail down that which they are not, although they are methods and guides towards same. For myself (personally speaking) I find the Upanishads much less convoluted when pointing towards matters such as these, although I do appreciate teachings from other ways and schools. Best wishes, Om

Hello Lifeforce, Who knows and who is keeping tally of who is "closer"? Anyway, I think I agree with you in the sense that only intellectual attainments related to areas of "belief/religion/rules/ritual/future lives teachings" etc. is not fully hitting the mark although that doesn't mean or negate the fact that one could also have what some call, "right" and or direct experience related such things... (which people may have by working with and through same on multiple levels, which btw does include the intellectual) Bob

Hello Sarnyn, Several good points, and considering that this is the internet I think your last point really hits the mark. "This is an area of debate that warrants investigation at the personal level. I won't add to the flames of that fire however, because it is still burning in my own mind". Good fortune

1. I believe the Sanskrit based term of "Buddha" was around for a very long time before Buddhism itself was founded by the historic Shakyamuni Buddha - thus in a way this term and its meaning can be used in other schools or religions. 2. Besides Hilter, it is nice to know that my "sins" against the Purity can be corrected and forgiven and that the hell realms are not the last stop for me and what I am responsible for. 3. transcended in the sense of freedom from bondage does not devalue life, it is life in its fullest. 4. karma is complex, thus start with simple dharmas which will add up in a big way of taking care of complex karmas. 5. Rebirth in Hinduism (which sounds more like what you are speaking of?) and those of Buddhist teachings are not the same with each other, or even the same within different schools or sects related those religions. Btw, I'd say the main idea of either is not coming back per-se but being free now and always, regardless of form, non-form, and or time and place. Good fortune, Om

...then again another way to touch on these lines could be to say that the mind in its calm/concentrated and deep state is meditation itself, but attachments to it's to topsy-turvy, uncalm/unconcentrated states is not.

I thought the sutra was very interesting in several ways... 1. A God is recorded as reading the mind and intent of the Buddha. (from afar) 2. A God is recorded as helping the Buddha more or less refute his own doubts. 3. A God is recorded as de-materializing and re-materializing via pure energy to come and go from physical form. 4. A God is recorded as directly interceeding for the well being of human beings. 5. A God is recorded as fully recognizing the value of Dharma without going through all sorts of religous ceremony and conditions for communicating about such. 6. Some Buddhists (or perhaps semi-Buddhists if you will?) that I've heard speak seem to deny or discount the idea and value of a God? (which I feel is refuted in this text, not to mention others) 7. A God is shown recognizing and honoring the awakened one, thus the God also has awakening and honor to do such. 8. Not only can our individual lives turn on a dime (so to speak) but so can the lives of countless beings. Om

...there's a point do any truly awake Buddhist teachers/masters/gurus advocate not living fully in this life? (me thinks not) thanks for your reply

...btw there are many true Gurus or spiritual teachers, but the bad apples get most of the press. A true guru is also like a mirror that can reflect back what we may need to see from someone else (so to speak) since our minds are so incredibly clever at playing hide and seek with themselves. Om

Hi Kate, That saying of, "Absolute power corrupts, absolutely" has been around but imo it is actually not true, which is because absolute power as one with truth will absolutely burn up any corruption or untruth, thus only relative power or truths can be corrupt in such a sense. Of course if one has no faith in an "absolute" such as alluded to as the Tao that can not be spoken of - or corrupted, then such a point is meaningless. Bob

"Gautama Buddha was constantly confronted by his students about his teachings and he answered each and all of those questions with great patience, diligence and came up (of course) with an irrefutable (enlightened) answer". "Please, don't take writen statements things literally." Ok, and btw that also applies to your statement above.

"...You've got to learn to be the master of your own mind before you can see the true realities that govern you as a person". JK. ...another spin off of that is when you realize that "your own mind" is just another shifting appearence - just like all the rest of the vastness of mind which is not you. Om

...btw, are hard core anything's permanent?