3bob

Can mind ever know of absolute if mind is created and creating, spun out of the un-named and un-nameable as the aspects or processes you speak of which can be named? Agreed, there is no proof in the sense you speak of. For no one can or ever will find proof in mind for that which beyond mind. I have no problem at all with eternal cycles but again to me those are aspects that are spun out so to speak into time and space as time and space. Om

very well said! bump

Ok MH, agreed chapter 25 could be debated. (along the lines you bring up) Anyway, my basic belief follows the pointer of: "Yuan-shih T'ien-tsun -- The First Principal He has no beginning and no end. He existed "before the void and the silence, before primordial chaos." He is self-existing, changeless, limitless, invisible, contains all virtues, is present in all places and is the source of all truth" (which can not really be nailed down by any beliefs or concepts) Peace and Love also! Om

...and it is well that those who would steal and devour the sun can not reach it nor the sacred soul of the earth - for She to is helped by her children grown bright and true beyond even the sun. Om

I know about the, "what you fear shall come upon you" teachings and fact. And I see that you to can take great liberties with meanings...including mine. Yes, "focus on the divine" or "first things first" and we will be protected. Some here apparently give lip service to that idea and then turn around and focus on gaining powers for their ego. (which can be a big lesson with a big price, but even that doesn't last forever thank God) Btw, the idea of someone ending up being a major badie is one thing, part of my reason for warnings for anyone interested is about a wanna-be falling under their devices which can happen without a "focus on the Divine" such as you've said, and which is also a well known teaching and fact. Om Jai Sat Guru

Certain sounds and their connotations attract different types of beings and there is spiritual science to this area. Usage of the F word tends to attract demonic powers. Btw, hot shots are apparently to bold to care about this, which to them must be a silly point... Om

"On top of that, there are all kinds of stories of yogis and other kinds of teachers who "go bad" and get drawn in..." A good foundation will prevent or mitigate a lot of possible trouble in that area, in other words if someone has a healthy, well rounded beingness and nature already established then even if they "go bad" to some degree they can still fall back on or probably not fall very far below such a foundation. But without having such a foundation and someone trys out some of this stuff and they "go bad", then the possibility to fall into hell realms is increased. (after which getting back to "normal" human life would be like heaven!!) That is why any truly spiritual teacher helps a student establish and keep their spiritual foundation before, during and after any other type of methods. I know of falling personally.

"first things first", is love and working with meaning and fulfillment of all of our various dharmas, for without such - pursuit of powers are in vain, thus the types of powers mentioned are only a fringe benefit used to help accomplish that which is truly first things first... my take anyway

does this string get axed next?

Not hardly possible, wise or legal near the beach...

Thanks for all of the hard work and time Sean!

a collection of short quotes: from Will Durant One of the lessons of history is that nothing is often a good thing to do and always a clever thing to say. A statesman cannot afford to be a moralist. As soon as liberty is complete it dies in anarchy. Bankers know that history is inflationary and that money is the last thing a wise man will hoard. Civilization begins with order, grows with liberty and dies with chaos. Civilization exists by geological consent, subject to change without notice. Civilization is the order and freedom is promoting cultural activity. Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance. Education is the transmission of civilization. Every form of government tends to perish by excess of its basic principle. Every science begins as philosophy and ends as art. Every vice was once a virtue, and may become respectable again, just as hatred becomes respectable in wartime. History is mostly guessing; the rest is prejudice. I am not against hasty marriages, where a mutual flame is fanned by an adequate income. If man asks for many laws it is only because he is sure that his neighbor needs them; privately he is an unphilosophical anarchist, and thinks laws in his own case superfluous. In my youth I stressed freedom, and in my old age I stress order. I have made the great discovery that liberty is a product of order. Inquiry is fatal to certainty. It may be true that you can't fool all the people all the time, but you can fool enough of them to rule a large country. Knowledge is the eye of desire and can become the pilot of the soul. Man became free when he recognized that he was subject to law. Moral codes adjust themselves to environmental conditions. end

a goofy chuckle sent, which also came back... thanks

The Tao (as un-nameable) - is not the "Two" which instantly turns into the "Three" and thus are like aspects of the Tao, and in them all dynamics or change are taking place. (and which can be named as process in the I Ching) Anyway, that is my very basic understanding. Further, there is also the following line in the T.T.C. 25, "Standing alone without change, yet pervading all without fail" I'm not sure how Taoists in general interpret those lines but I don't see how anyone can apparently deny the fairly straight foward content and context of those lines per the T.T.C. of Taoism? I'm no expert or even a rookie but additional comparisons or views from some of the Taoists here along those lines would be appreciated? And thanks for the discussion MH. I hope to comment on some of your other points when time and energy permit. Om

interesting how you contradict yourself in one short paragraph.

Holy cow guys! Just imagine what we could do with all this energy, like build another bridge in New York or San Francisco... Om

Thanks for sharing some of your thoughts and views on the matter MH. The Tao is non-evolutionary or changeless. (as recorded in doctrine given by Sages) Which then brings us to its first born or to "the One"... do you see where I'm headed? Also from TTC 25 there is this excerpt, "...heaven follows the ways of Tao, Tao follows its own ways", or from TTC 41, "...The Tao is hidden and nameless; Yet it alone knows how to render help and to fulfill". Thus (and not mentioning many other examples) in my view the Tao is not only intelligent beyond human conception but also the source of all intelligence (although with various permutations taking place to it) for every realm. To get back to the "One", where really are the individuals that can do something outside of the One, or how could heaven let something take place that does not follow ways of the Tao - which it follows? Or how could there be an evil disconnect somewhere within or under the One?

Again, which of the 8 liberations are false? (besides skirting around with "at a certain level"?)

what is this?

So which of the 8 liberations are false? Why this constant dichotomy between illusion and reality? There really is no dichotomy except in the mind of dichotomy. And in using the tools of dichotomy one will only find dichotomy. Good luck Om

Among people on a brass tacks and human level I agree with much of what you say as a means of trying to cope on that level... yet there are greater evils than Hitler - which may be hard to imagine considering the horror that he was part of. A question: can we forgive the Tao or the Sages or Heaven or whatever we hold to be true and natural for not stopping such horror before it took place? And who or what should be blamed for not taking certain preventitive measures at the beginning of mankind?

Agreed Blasto, good point: Here is a link (to links) with some of the authors material that is on-line http://www.cha.harvard.edu/vov/publications.shtml

"The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head."

Hi MH, These "events" are also energy... and the untwisting or unbinding of energy helps all parties, including the one that is seen as having caused the harm in that they to have a new possibility or opening to see the harm that they have done which before they had probably justified and blindly held onto... such is not of a tit-for-tat forgiveness which is often the human norm, nor even the easier situation when one says they are sorry and then forgiveness can take place. It also doesn't mean repetiton of the harm is allowed, nor does it guarantee that another will come around, but it does give the possibility for such. While on the other hand how can there can be a true or complete "letting go" when energy remains twisted in more difficult situations, even if we tuck such hurt away someplace safe where it seemingly can't effect us, for such energy is still around in many cases - perhaps smoldering in our sub-conscious.

forgiveness is not an intellectual/conceptual process... it is from the tempered heart and a wisdom that sees the greater possibilities of healing for all parties involved and stands open before same, along with the will to carry through and make such a reality. Om