3bob

I had something semi or at least quasi profound to add but forgot what it was...

btw. Imo Buddhism has not contained the truth in text and niether has Hinduism or any other teaching - even if the text was as perfectly written as it could be; at best such is a pointing to. keep sharpening a knife and the edge is no good... or something like that

the "unborn and undying"... all the rest comes and goes.

Wow Xabir2005, That was a long quote... thanks for the extra effort :-) I'll have to ponder some... Anyway, to me the mind of all things is complex when looked upon with thought, while the purity and truth that shines through all of mind is not complex. So it seems that we have not agreed upon the meaning and use of the term "mind". No biggy, unless we want to end up spending the rest of our lives becoming experts and authorities on arguing such meaning. Hell TzuJanLi, Those are some great submissions on your part, thank you Om

I see above that you have dropped the term "Brahma" as previously used in your quote... as far as I've studied, (which is not all that deep) Brahma normally refers to the God Brahma, which as you apparently already know is not seen as the final realization by many of various Hindu tradition(s). Someone (the teacher you mention) with so much study making such an error between Brahma and Brahman does not compute for me? Are you also saying that he has now left Buddhism and joined Vedanta? and implying that he is highly realized and authority on both ways? Frankly, that is also kind of hard to compute, but not impossible. Would you agree that the tool of the mind can only speculate on the "beyond of the beyond" of Buddhism - regardless of what it considers that to be; and that that same tool can do no better than to specualte on non-dualism in Hinduism? Om

"I mean...all is mind. Can you find anything but mind in your experience?..." thuscomeone. Yes, but not by the power of mind. I think an idea here is that the "beyond the beyond" is not dependent on mind experience for if it was it would suffer as an identity caught up in changing mind experiences. Imo "mind" is obviously a problematic term since it used in so many ways to try and mean so much. Om

Hello Xabir2005, Your friend does not even use the Hindu/Sanskrit terms of Brahma and Brahman correctly - and he has been in study for ten years??? Further, he presents Hiunduism as if it is only one school? (which by no means is so!) His key arguments and summations related to separation, "illusion" and Brahman in Hinduism are not correct in the way many Hindus see these subjects, and for many such is not held with a the deeper understanding of the Upanishads. (and or with other doctrine and revealed teachings) There is that Buddhist saying that goes something like, "Enlightenment is samsara fully and correctly understood" (which I feel is a very good one) Anyway, imo this commentary you've posted goes to show the continuing misunderstandings by many Buddhists (even at very high levels!) when it comes to the vastness of Hinduism! In a nutshell, any time anyone uses generalizations and stereotypes to try and nail down Buddhism or Hinduism to one school or one conceptual meaning through the limits of intellectually and more or less argumentively defined parameters, then such problematic debates will continue to arise. (and also be cherished :-) Believe what you will. Good luck, Om

"I've thought it over and...there is no objective world. All there is is mind - seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting, thinking, etc. These (mind) make up the totality of our "reality" as sentient beings. Just try and find anything outside of seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting, thinking in your own experience. Good luck. And it is useless to talk about anything outside of our own experience isn't it? I can't believe I didn't see this before. It is so simple. Conditioning runs very deep I guess. Anyway...all is mind". thuscomeone Hello, may I ask what you mean by, "all is mind"? "Nirvāna is meant specifically - as pertains gnosis - that which ends the identity of the mind (citta) with empirical phenomena*. Doctrinally Nibbāna is said of the mind which "no longer is coming (bhava) and going (vibhava)", but which has attained a status in perpetuity, whereby "liberation (vimutta) can be said". (I borrowed this quote which is similar to my thinking on the matter) *or in idenity with and or in bondage to the related changes of ones (so-called) own experience of, "seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting, thinking, etc"; which come and go and pass away. I like the saying, "All is Spirit"; anyway I'm not a Buddhist so I'll leave off here for now... good luck Dude.

Hi Marblehead, Nice quotes, thanks for sharing (I mostly tend to change "nothing" into no-thing when reading this type of material. Do you know the Chinese breakdown/roots to their variations of their ideogram for nothing? For instance like a breakdown of latin words which I also know almost nothing about...) Happy New Year, 3bob

Well quoted... Blessings to you also ShaktiMama

"The one who thinks himself equal or inferior or superior to others is, by that very reason, involved in argument. But such thoughts as equal, inferior, and superior are not there in one who is not moved by such measurements. Why should a wise person argue with another, saying: "This is a truth" and "this is a lie"? If such a one never entertains a thought about equal, inferior, or superior with whom is he going to argue? The sage who has freed himself from dependence on words and is no longer attached to knowledge does not risk the smothering of truth by engaging in disputes with people". Sutta Nipata ...and as a another thought for the day if you will (?) a quote from the Buddha on Love: "Those who attain perfect wisdom are forever inspired by the conviction that the infinitely varied forms of this world, in all their relativity, far from being a hindrance and dangerous distraction to the spiritual path, are really a healing medicine, Why? Because by the very fact that they are interdependent on each other and therefore have no separate self, they express the mystery and the energy of all-embracing love. - Not just the illumined wise ones but every single being in the interconnected world is a dweller in the boundless infinity of love". Prajnaparamita Good day

"thanks Bob", Excuse me, I'm not a lever for your rant Lucky7strikes if that is what you imply? I think we may need to go back and work on the third liberation, or work up to it.

"there is no value in ascribing rational understandings to the non-rational (mind you, non-rational is not the same as irrational). Imho, there is no way to know why until the Self is revealed. This might seem like a cop-out, but it is not. It is simply an acknowledgment of the fact that we can only go so far with rational inquiry, when it comes to the Self". dwai Additionally Dwai we dont' really have to limit this idea/fact of the limits of rational/logical mind to not being able to verify the "Self"; (btw, such can not verify the no-self either) I submit that it is plain and clear in the Buddhas own words below that the rational/logical mind working with data based on same can only go so far in understanding the 8 liberations that he spells out in the text below - which is highly regarded by most if not all Buddhists as true doctrine. (and imo around the 3rd liberation is about all reason can verify, after that reason can do nothing more than speculate, which is reasonable -lol) from the Maha-parinibbana Sutta: Last Days of the Buddha, Eight Liberations 33. "Now there are eight liberations, Ananda. What are those eight? 34. "Oneself having form, one perceives forms; this is the first liberation. 35. "Being unaware of one's own form, one perceives forms external to oneself; this is the second liberation. 36. "Experiencing loveliness, one is intent upon it; this is the third liberation. 37. "By utterly transcending the perceptions of matter, by the disappearance of the perceptions of sense-reaction, and by giving no attention to diversity-perceptions, one becomes aware of, attains to, and abides in the sphere of infinite space; this is the fourth liberation. 38. "By utterly transcending the sphere of infinite space, one becomes aware of, attains to, and abides in the sphere of infinite consciousness; this is the fifth liberation. 39. "By utterly transcending the sphere of infinite consciousness, one becomes aware of, attains to, and abides in the sphere of nothingness; this is the sixth liberation. 40. "By utterly transcending the sphere of nothingness, one attains to and abides in the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; this is the seventh liberation. 41. "By utterly transcending the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, one attains to and abides in the cessation of perception and sensation; this is the eighth liberation. "These, Ananda, are the eight liberations. Good day

yep, cats are cool

Mikaelz, Is there any type of eternalism that you don't see as extreme?

"...One universe echoing One silence! How wonderful if that came to pass! Imagine the potential there for healing the Mother in that 10 minutes of total abstinence of all movements and activities" Righto, right on CowTao image to if everyone at an every NFL game and everyone at soccor game did so every weekend! Om

Wow, this looks like a great thread...! (and lots of reading yet to do) adding a little quote here: "Who of us is mature enough for offspring before the offspring themselves arrive? The value of marriage is not that adults produce children, but that children produce adults". by Peter DeVries

An excerpt from an excerpt that imo helps one get a handle along these lines: (whether they are Buddhist or not) "Emptiness, as employed in The Stanzas, is neither a metaphysics nor a nihilism. Nagarjuna sees it as identical with dependent arising itself. "We state that whatever is dependent arising, that is emptiness. That is dependent upon convention. That itself is the middle path."(20) This verse of The Stanzas also links emptiness with the Buddha's middle path. In this respect, emptiness is Nagarjuna's restatement of the Buddha's practical religious wisdom regarding metaphysics and nihilism. In the Buddhist tradition, wisdom (prajna) has to do with the reorientation of subjectivity which leads to a release from attachments. Wisdom releases the person from obsession. More positively stated, the aim of wisdom is to liberate one for relating to the world in freedom. Herein lies the scholarly consensus regarding emptiness in The Stanzas.(21) Emptiness should not be understood metaphysically. Neither should it be mistaken as a form of nihilism. Emptiness, in The Stanzas, is equivalent to the Buddhist wisdom of nonattachment".

Looking into a perfectly clean mirror that truly reflects back that which is before it is not so easy, although a mirror with compassion lifts one up to see its reflection with the same eyes of compassion, instead of with eyes of shame and thus cleans and removes attachment to that image(s). Such is power.

"this was my trail of thought too in a way.but here im again existing as deeper joy,in order for joy to be her joyfull self she has to be put up against something ,so there is some creation involved here. which means the death will have to be reborn ,not dead completley. i am also sure that ill survive physical death ,totally certain too". Suninmyeyes Hello Suninmyeyes, The non-dual Joy is not of creation although it flows through creation free and unbound. Identity in that sees death die in transition to it's Truth, and then even such seeing is no more. How fast is She? So very, very fast that she is standing still everywhere at once, unencompassable. Om

hehehe

(words also of a kind Buddhist monk) GIVEN TO THE DYING This body is not me; I am not caught in this body, I am life without boundaries, I have never been born and I have never died. Over there the wide ocean and the sky with many galaxies All manifests from the basis of consciousness. Since beginningless time I have always been free. Birth and death are only a door through which we go in and out. Birth and death are only a game of hide-and-seek. So smile to me and take my hand and wave good-bye. Tomorrow we shall meet again or even before. We shall always be meeting again at the true source, Always meeting again on the myriad paths of life. ~Thich Nhat Hanh, No Death, No Fear (taken from the Anguttura Nikaya sutra)