3bob

A true master has no need to make any claims or to give any super-duper signs. I believe one could reflect on part of T.T.C. 38 as an example of such: "High Virtue is non-virtuous; Therefore it has Virtue. Low Virtue never frees itself from virtuousness; Therefore it has no Virtue. High Virtue makes no fuss and has no private ends to serve: Low Virtue not only fusses but has private ends to serve. High humanity fusses but has no private ends to serve: High morality not only fusses but has private ends to serve. High ceremony fusses but finds no response; Then it tries to enforce itself with rolled-up sleeves..."

Ah, reminds me of a saying in Ecclesiastes: Eccles 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

the price is very high but all can pay by leaving everything at the entrance for, "Only Nothing can enter into no-space". Om

By Yutang Lin "Teaching of "Non-form" indicates non-attachment to form. Misinterpreted, it is adopted as holding to absence of form. Abiding in no forms at all, one falls into the abyss of void. Only in no grasping to form or non-form lies true liberation". hope this quote is of some use in relation to your post, thuscomeone

THE POOLS teisho by Charlotte Joko Beck, Sensei This text addresses some of the most fundamental and delicate religious issues. Therefore, it should be read, quoted and analyzed in a mindful way. Copyrights © by Charlotte Joko Beck and Zen Center of San Diego, USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE POOLS "Let's picture if we can two landscapes. The first has a deep clear quiet pool, and the second also has a deep clear quiet pool. The first one is surrounded by garbage. The second one, also surrounded by garbage, has an odd characteristic - everyone who jumps into the pool takes a little pile of garbage in with him -- and there is something in the pool that eats it up, so it remains quiet and clear. Which kind of practice are you doing? Most of us long for deep, blissful sitting and, even if our pool of peace is ringed around with garbage, we attempt not notice it; if the garbage can disturb us, we want to ignore it. We don't like difficulties; we prefer to sit in our peace and not be intruded upon. That's one type of sitting. The other kind of pool eats up the garbage; as fast as it appears, it is consumed as the person entering the pool carries it in with him. Still in a short time the pool is clear and undisturbed. It may churn more at first. The major difference is that the first pool ends up with more and more garbage around it; the second has none or very little. As has been said, most of us long for the first kind of practice (life). But the second, facing life as it is, is more genuine; we keep churning up our drama -- seeing it, experiencing it, swallowing it -- throwing the garbage into ourselves, the deep pool that we are. A practice exclusively devoted to concentration (shutting out all but the object of concentration) is the first pool. Very peaceful, very seductive. But when you climb out of the pool, the garbage of life remains -- our dualistic dealings with our work and relationships. You haven't handled them. Or you may resort to the well-intentioned but inaccurate devices of positive thinking or affirmations; the gas in the garbage increases and in time explodes. The second pool (being each moment of life, pleasant or unpleasant) is at times a slow and frustrating practice, but in the long run, fruitful and satisfying. With all that as a background, let's look at what can be called the turning point in our life and practice. From what are we turning? Let's look at some sentences: "I feel irritated. I feel annoyed. I feel happy." What we omit is: "I feel I am hurt by you. I feel I have been made happy by you." Actually, the fact is not that you irritate me, it's that I have a desire to be irritated. You may loudly protest, "oh, never, I certainly don't want to feel irritated or hurt..." Well, just for a few years (intelligently, in the second pool). The first and uncomfortable years of sitting make it clearer and clearer that my desire is to be irritated or angry (separate). That's almost all I have known as a means to preserve and protect what I think is my identity. With continued awareness, it dawns that there is only one person who can irritate me or make me feel lonely and depressed, and it is myself -- myself as a false identity. We begin to see a strange and lethal truth: contrary to our beliefs, our basic drive and all our life force goes into a struggle to perpetuate our separateness, our touchiness, or self-righteousness. Lao Tzu said, "He who feels punctured, must be a balloon", the balloon of irritability, anger, self-centered opinions. If we can be punctured (hurt), we can be sure we are still a balloon. We want to be a balloon; otherwise we could not be punctured. But our greatest desire is to keep the balloon inflated. After all, it's me! So what would turning be? What is the turning point? It begins when we observe and feel our anger, our manipulation, our anxiety - and know in our hearts a deep determination to be in another mode. Then the real transformation can begin. Instead of ignoring garbage, pushing it away, or wallowing in it, we take our garbage into ourselves and let it digest. We take ourselves with us into the pool of life. This begins the turning. After it, life is never the same. The turning is at first feeble and intermittent. Over time, it becomes stronger and more insistent (in Christian terms, the 'hound of haven' chases us). As it strengthens, more and more we know who our Master is. Of course, the Master is not a thing or a person but our awakening knowledge of Who We Are. The difficult years of practice (and life) come before the turning. The patience and skill of both teacher and student are called on to the utmost. Some but not all will make it through the difficulties. Gurdjieff said: man is a machine. We know how machines work: when the blender's button is pushed, it goes WHOOSSSH; when we turn our car's ignition key, the motor roars. Man is a machine. Why? As long as a man's primary drive is to keep his balloon un-punctured, to avoid having his buttons pushed, he is an automatic machine which has no choice. Even moving from passive dependence to an active and angry independence -- "Don't tell me what to do!" -- is still the activity of a machine with buttons. I feel ruled and compelled by 'something else'; I have no choice. Like the blender, if pushed, I turn on. Suppose you do something to me that I view as punishing (it's mean, it's unfair, I don't deserve it). How do I react when this button is pushed? With anger? (And I may not reveal my anger, or I may turn it against myself). Then I am a machine. In this instance, what would the tuning point be? The turning point is my ability, developed slowly by practice, to be aware of the thoughts and bodily sensations which comprise anger. In the observing of thoughts and sensations, anger will swallow itself and its energy can open life instead of destroying it. Then I (the angry one) can act out of this clarity in a manner that benefits me and you. This is the way of the second pool, the one that takes the garbage, digests it, letting it feed and renew life as compost does a garden. Let us not have some naive notion that this ability is won overnight. A lifetime is more like it. Nevertheless, faithful and determined practice makes a difference and fairly soon at that. We come to view the unpleasant aspects of life as learning opportunities. If my balloon is deflated a little -- great!. As an opportunity to be welcomed, not avoided or dramatized. Each round of such practice renders us a little less machine-like, gives us more appreciation of ourselves and others. Let's live in the second pool".

"If I am sensitive to other people's suffering, I will have to suffer. If I completely free myself from suffering, there is absolutely no way I can be sensitive to other people's suffering". The sentence above apparently wraps up your point of view... (?) Such is not of my experience. The free one can help free others from suffering... and their sensitivity is instantaneous and very far reaching, in fact right into very the depths of heart and mind that only the - absolutely purest - of trustworthy intentions, kindness, understanding, and an uplifting of energy are given to help face and relieve suffering! Om

Hi Marblehead, Nice reflections with a beautiful use of terms from you, many thanks! Om

-------------- As we reach out - such does not go unnoticed - thus we shall be reached for. To synchronize takes two hands joining.

Thanks for sharing your insights, and warning. - Spirit knowing Spirit - is not of the same type of knowledge that "mind" knowledge is. Further, in Spirit there is no danger of overflow or overdoing it like you have mentioned with mind knowledge; for - Spirit gives unto Spirit - and ultimately without such (self) knowledge we get caught up in a, "Vanity of vanities" of some form or another... Chuang Tsu seems to be speaking of what could be called - standing before the gate of the One, with the first and the last of a coming and a going transformation - which I feel is alluded to in the T.T.C. 25. (although such is only my present way of relating to his saying) Om

from the T.T.C., 25 "...To be great is to go on, To go on is to be far, To be far is to return..." even though the Tao never really left. (per se)

Hello Marblehead, Thank you for your reply. "mind" can only go so far if I'm hearing you correctly? Btw, to me there is the key saying in Buddhism that goes beyond the "dependence of things" aspect of its teachings, as alluded to in the following quote from the Udana text: "There is, monks, an unborn, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded. If, monks, there were not this unborn, not-become, not-made, not-compounded, there would not here be an escape from the born, the become, the made, the compounded. But because there is an unborn, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded, therefore there is an escape from the born, the become, the made, the compounded". (or in a very generalizied use of the word - things -) Om

"Thirty years ago, before I began the study of Zen, I said, 'Mountains are mountains, waters are waters.' After I got insight into the truth of Zen through the instructions of a good master, I said, 'Mountains are not mountains, waters are not waters.' But now, having attained the abode of final rest, I say, 'Mountains are really mountains, waters are really waters'."

----------------------- A little more on that if we will? - Killing the Buddha - "There's an old saying, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." Who's that Buddha? What does it mean to "meet" the Buddha? What does killing the Buddha imply? The historical Buddha, Shakyamuni, on attaining enlightenment, is said to have realized that all beings, just as they are, are Buddhas. If that's so, meeting a Buddha on the road should be a pretty commonplace event! So should being a Buddha on the road! But that's where the word "meeting" comes in. It implies encountering something or someone outside or other than oneself. We all come to practice carrying around images or ideals of who we should be and what we imagine a Teacher or Buddha should look like. And we may chase after individuals that for a while seem like they live up to our image, ignore those who do not, and generally treat ourselves with contempt for not living up to the standards set by our imaginary inner "Buddha." All this may keep us pretty busy, but it has nothing to do with real practice, which is an awareness of who and what we actually are, not the pursuit of some ideal of who we think we should be. So "killing the Buddha" means killing or wiping out this fantasy image, and "the road" is two fold: the road outside where we look outside ourselves for the ones who have all the answers, and the inner mind road, where we set up all the "shoulds" we must obey to turn ourselves into the Buddhas we don't believe we already are, but think we must become. It is said that Shakyamuni's last dying words to his disciples were, "Be a lamp unto yourselves." Be your own light, your own authority, your own Buddha. Kill off every image of the Buddha, see who and what you are in this very moment, see that there is no Buddha other than THIS MOMENT. A psychologist friend recently complained that Buddha's last words themselves were a trap. (Actually he called them something much less polite!) How can anybody TELL you to be your own authority? In the guise of liberation, these words become just one more dogma that the disciples submit to. Anybody who TELLS you to "Kill the Buddha" is giving a command as self-contradictory as "Be spontaneous!" It's a good point, and one that shows that this koan and Buddhism in general can't escape a more complex involvement with issues of authority. Our psychological reality is that we have to learn and practice to achieve our independence, and that learning almost inevitably has to take place within the context of some kind of disciplined practice. Remember we have to "kill the Buddhas" inside as well as outside ourselves. If we take this saying to mean only that we should reject all forms of external authority, we will end up leaving ourselves at the mercy of all sorts of, often unconscious, inner "Buddhas." Isaiah Berlin distinguished two kinds liberty he called positive and negative liberty. Negative liberty is freedom FROM, freedom from outside interference of one kind or another. Killing the outside Buddha may give us a version of this negative liberty. Positive liberty is freedom TO, the liberty of enabling conditions. And these are what are provided by a Teacher, a practice, a discipline. Berlin emphasized that the two kinds of liberty were conceptually at odds with one another, and an increase in one automatically meant a decrease in the other. And yet, we cannot thrive without both. Without a formal practice, we will never engage the deeply ingrained unconscious determinants of our character. But any practice, any teacher inevitably offers the risk and the temptation to hand over responsibility to someone or something outside of ourselves. The middle way is our balancing of these two truths. There is no one correct way to balance them, and every teacher, every discipline will offer a unique mix. No one can tell you how you, as a particular individual, ought to practice. Each of us must decide and take responsibility for the balance works best for us. That is how we truly can be a "lamp unto ourselves." "

"Much love people" and to you also Sam I can only give a little generic feedback or advice that I feel is safe, I'm not qualified in the area of mind you are expressing interest in. (but apparently this site has several that are?) Good fortune to you

Hello Sam, I signed off with the word "Om' in my last post in this string in the sense of using a word like "peace", but I go by the handle of 3bob at this site. We may go in a multitude of apparent and or relative directions, but where do they all ultimately lead back to? I'd say "cultivate" unconditional love in whatever path you may walk, and you will travel well. Om

"Enlightenment", right under our noses all along...

some info: Yuan-shih T'ien-tsun -- The First Principal "He has no beginning and no end. He existed "before the void and the silence, before primordial chaos." He is self-existing, changeless, limitless, invisible, contains all virtues, is present in all places and is the source of all truth". Some may exchange the word, "He" with She. For me "Mystery" is beyond definitions or limitations of only personal or only impersonable, etc.. Best wishes, Om

Hello Quadrant6, I noticed that you did not mention supporting a spouse and children and keeping a roof over their heads thus your choices would seemingly be far more flexible compared to that of being in the position of a householder? (in that a householder has certain dharmas to fulfill) Whatever the situation you feel you are in - it probably took some time to develop thus it may also take some time to change. Anyway, changing how you feel inside is far more important than changing your external situation or environment. So if we work from the inside out, then where-ever we find ourselves will be right and alright. Om Shanti

T.T.C., chapter 21: It lies in the nature of Grand Virtue To follow the Tao and the Tao alone. Now what is the Tao? It is Something elusive and evasive. Evasive and elusive! And yet It contains within Itself a Form. Elusive and evasive! And yet It contains within Itself a Substance. Shadowy and dim! And yet It contains within Itself a Core of Vitality. The Core of Vitality is very real, It contains within Itself an unfailing Sincerity. Throughout the ages Its Name has been preserved In order to recall the Beginning of all things. How do I know the ways of all things at the Beginning? By what is within me.

Something for your consideration if you will: "...In other words human beings are not the ones who initiate the seeking of Enlightenment, God, or the Absolute. Rather, Reality is, forever, seeking out human beings. Reality calls us to the Path. It establishes one on the Path. Reality provides one with the doctrines, practices, guides and spiritual community. Reality watches over the seeker (in the form of a teacher, guru, shaykh, or master) during the spiritual journey, and, finally, Reality provides the vehicle of realization through which the mystical quest is brought to fruition".

Unconditional love is of the essence of spirituality, Without it spirituality would be an unrealized and unexpressed potential. It forces nothing yet is of the greatest force...

Hello Serene Blue, "In Search of the Miraculous", some interesting stuff and lots of controversy? Do you already know that there are several cults that use (or abuse) the Mr. G and Mr. O materials? I just wanted to pass that warning along in case you hadn't heard such? I'm sure there are some great teachers also. Best wishes, Bob

It sounds like many believe they are doing the choosing.... for having and manipulating various powers which are more or less forms of seduction and ego/traps. The deep and pure spiritual power is the One that chooses us and not the other way around. We mostly prepare and remove blocks, the true power is already of the intelligence to help and guide us as needed. Surrender; the Ocean betrays none.