3bob

one could say that besides the chick working on cracking its shell from the inside there is also that which is working on the shell from the outside...and such an inside and outside are only there until they are not there.

as long as one has any manifestation they are responsible for whether gross to very subtle (for instance subtle as deities like Quan Yin are described) Dharmas need to be fulfilled...thus much of this talk about non-duality is putting and or projecting the cart in front of the horse which is not "natural".

destruction in this context needs further definition imo...thus I believe that the word transformation gives a better description regarding the matter. Btw., in Taoism a "return" is often mentioned and that return is a transformation. An analogy one might use is electricity returning to or going into a transformer and thus being changed into an electromagnetic field, which is not destruction per-se.

this thread is in the general* section so obviously not in or of the Buddhist sub-forum. As for the rest, a "maybe" and who knows anything for sure per such speculations... *general section: which can be like a "wild, wild west" free-for-all. As for the big E: I'd venture its as simple as pie and plain as day so to speak, thus not of mind nor caught in ten thousand volumes of text or in doing a million years of methods although I would not deny any of their own along such lines.

"my yoke is easy" Jesus "You Will Know Them by Their Fruits. “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Matthew 7:15 - (NKJV)....

obviously the later part of OP is twisted up...although we do have to face hell or the hellish (for instance karma, ego & evil facts or potentials) both within and without of ourselves, BUT that in no way means any true root is based or found there... for spiritual practices help enable one to face such forces and to seal them off. The True Root and eternal power is greater than any known or knowable power by or of the mind - and is of the "spiritual heart",

I'd say there is a definite correlation to confusion and doubt when mixing up various forms of Buddhism and Hinduism along with throwing in some Taoism and whatever else into the mix, which is something some of us get away with doing here... (myself included)

Sri Yantra

The "one" as alluded to in Taoism is "born" or the first born of Tao... to me that One is not just a one per say but the -all - (or all manifest from the grossest to the super subtle)...as in all time, space, place, beings, etc.. And the Atman knows of all of that!

Atman has no separation from pure shakti or spiritual power, not even for part of a nano of a nano second, thus Atman can also be alluded to as being eternal and quintessential power for without that Atman would not be Atman!

off topic but I find it strange that the historic Buddha as a spiritual teacher preached against other "X" spiritual teachings yet also turned around and more or less said that "rafts" are useful.

My favorite pointers can be found in the Chandogya Upanishad, with that and other upanishads one doesn't really have to get into a lot of sectarian debates although if that is one's cup of tea or vehicle then fine. Also mixing Buddhism up with Hindu/Vedic based teachings is often a very problematic and counter-productive exercise, for instance oil and water do not mix and one can not force them to mix per any nice sounding correlations which is why well known and recognized guru's of either do not engage in such activities - thus appreciate both teachings- but one or the other other has to be chosen and verified through direct experience. Atman does not suffer from identifications in any realm of mind... yet is the source of purity which springs forth in Joy without a dualistic sorrow!

there is this saying from chap 25: "...to be great is to go on, to go on is to be far, to be far is to return, Hence the Tao is great, Heaven is great, Earth is great, King is great..." I'd say per this that there is no denial of the process and or dance of being which is also standing still

also not before or after some point yet there is a point of before and after for the evolution of matrix...

as long as we are caught in our karmas, egos, and whatever else may be in play the saying that everything is perfect can be a rather trite and anguish causing concept for some... as for working within duality towards non-duality everything is not perfect for or to beings bound by their karmas, egos, and whatever else may be in play - thus all the teachers, teachings and practices about a return to peace. Also everything in the One is perfect in a certain sense or with a certain perception and state of being yet the One also contains greater and lesser freedoms or realities per permutations to the ten thousand - meaning that in that context there are greater and lesser perfections so to speak, namely and anywhere from being at the threshold of non-duality or in a heavy karmic hell.

a subtle and gentle wind that pierces crashing seas of thought and emotion, suddenly the raging storm is calmed and the cruel iron chains are removed, giving one rest and peace and then deeper still to an unveiling of truth and its freedom!

realized masters, sages, saints or by whatever similar term one may use for same do not give up dharmic practices or wholesome aspects of their humanity in form to be free in Silence or formlessness...for "Silence" also uses such key human matrix's to work through. (along with all others as much as possible)

agreed in the sense that we can't prove something to someone else that is outside of mental constructs with more clever mental constructs

MH, As far as gods (or heavenly type beings or deities go) the historic Buddha recognized and also honored them in and for their place...for example during his great battle with Mara he importantly recognized and honored the Earth/goddess as his witness. I'm not a Buddhist but one can read of this example and so many more in their also well recognized and honored texts that have been carefully passed down for 2500 something years.

well we could run around and around the mulberry bush... Anyway I'd say if one has not put away certain doubts then that is not such a great feeling and in cases like that it does matter, namely and more so if it is a gnawing feeling which can't really be brushed off, dismissed or discounted no matter how hard one trys if one is being gnawed upon at various levels form the inside-out or the outside-in, or both...

I do not agree with your summation and I'd say neither does the meaning given in the T.T.C. per chapter 21, "...How do I know the ways of all things at the beginning? By what is within me." and that is mind blowing for Spirit knows Spirit, or more to the context of T.T.C., Tao knows Tao!

Emera, Have you also noticed in the quote above that its author reached a verdict so to speak, in other words no doubt tied to conflicting beliefs derived from only doing mental gymnastics regarding Tao? And one might ask how is that possible - well it is possible through direct experience as repeatedly alluded to in the text. (Btw, I'd add that a discussion on meanings related to belief and its sister faith is a big one and can not be discounted or dismissed out of hand)

all identified as only this or that particular being and or form under temporal life and death will pass away, but that temporal life and death which is under the Supreme Being also passes away...and then the freedom and joy of Spirit knows itself without doubt. edit: reworded and removed heavier sounding connotation, namely the god of death.

I remember the traffic in big Indian cities or towns, it seemed like major chaos and one would expect to see car, motorcycle, and rickshaw wrecks (and some cow collisions) on nearly every street or block, yet I saw almost no wrecks of any kind for somehow the pin-ball machine like traffic conditions brought out an almost unbelievable level instinctive adaptation in the drivers to avoid wrecks! (and that was with few traffic lights or traffic cops)

that which is sought can not be found in the mind but the mind does reach a threshold and from there grace may act further...