3bob

well I did not say difference, which some seem to equate with illusions...while "no disconnect" is a verifiable fact per Om.

being that there is no disconnect between the formless and form, or from stillness to movement, or from silence to light and sound, or from Brahman and Lord Brahma - thus...

The Self is beyond any categories or aggregates...yet does it have a "supreme" nature beyond description yet with aspects that can be named...I'd say yes but we would have to ask the gods about such details. Does the Self in a sense "spring forth" (in Joy beyond sorrow) as mentioned in the Upanishads yet also simultaneously remain still and silent? I'd say yes but don't ask me how since such a knowing is beyond normal knowing. Is the Self both personal and impersonal, both partial and impartial, and if so to whom, when or what - Itself? Chinese finger traps are instructive.

that sounds very reasonable although I'd say that there is the problem of the "mind", which gains or loses things here or there, thus mind can never add to or gain the Self which is always complete. So one might further wonder if that is so then how and why would such a transcendent - which is complete - have desires and also plans to gain or lose something, and what can it do and how does it solve the apparent "problem" mentioned?

that is a major question Bindi, being that the "Self" does not and can not to gain or loose anything or non-thing...so one might ask who or what is it that is striving to gain or attain realization and why? (being that the Self already is and always has been Realized)

maybe one being out of a billion of us are fully Self-Realized and walking around that way 24/7 so to speak...thus multiple quad-drillions of various beings are pending in Self Realization (a numbers guess?) - and if the Self is not worried about such a condition for beings on the earth, in the universe at large, and in what-ever unknown realms there may be - should we be worried - for everything will work out by the end of the cosmic cycle and then restart again (how could it be otherwise?) - ready or not....

The saying, "My kingdom is not of this world" is given in a seemingly straight-forward bible context...yet to me the saying is rife with possible connotations along with both agreement and contradiction to other well known spiritual sayings! For instance the Taoist teachings do not say or imply to me such a separation as Jesus (a golden immortal) is apparently making. The Tao does not exclude the ten-thousand from itself by saying such is not of what could be termed "the kingdom of Tao", (if you will or the manifest) which is different from being lost in attachment to or stuck in identification with some particular part of the "ten thousand". Other comments ?

That is a very interesting and involved subject Apech, which btw. has some very similar parallels of Buddhists or Buddhism doing such things in India, China and many other places for thousands of years... perhaps or could I suggest a new op along these lines about assimilation and or adaptation be started?

no problem Apeiron&Peiron for the op was about a Bible quote - btw. you have shared tons of information for any who want to dig deeper into it!!

I'd say yes to your last sentence and as alluded to me in the T.T.C. with - "goes far", "returns' and is "standing alone without change yet pervading all"... Btw...there are several major schools of "Hindu" related Shaivism some of which you may be interested in along the lines of comparative information - and they are not Advaita Vedanta which you probably already know?

I'd say the potential for an 'x' amount of meaning to get lost in translation is an aspect that more or less applies to all spiritual teachings. Btw. even if the T.T.C. and Bible (or whatever) had never been translated after being written say only by Laozi or Jesus we still have millions of translators to come afterwards, namely every single person who reads such texts and interprets it how they will. Thus even if such a text was untouched & in perfect condition coming from only the master or sage who wrote it (perhaps hundreds or thousands of years before) that in no way means that it is guaranteed to be fully understood! Yet if the author was moved by the Spirit in his writing some of that can be carried through or over to the reader to whatever degree they can hear or receive it even after someone else may have added a translation layer to it, but if the text never had any Spirit to it in the first place then translations wouldn't matter anyway. We can spend a lot of time looking for the "perfect" untouched, correct or original spiritual text and its probable meanings but there still remains the catch of what it takes to perfectly understand a perfect text! (beyond any common worldly meanings it may have)

in some cases yes, in this case I'd say no since that generalization does not apply being that the T.T.C. word choices were and are of the best possible in context and content from that source (or Sage who is not playing mental or intellectual gymnastics which lacks direct experience) as a form of conveyance.

the Tao is said to be "standing alone without change", yet it is also said to "go on is to be far" and also "moves" along with "to return" which all can be found in the T.T.C. chap.14, 16, 25....etc..which can bring us back to chap 1 where "flow" and "origin" are mentioned which to me is related to the "mysteries" and permutations if you will of Tao. (like "The One,The Two, The Three, and The Ten thousand". Thus there is no denial of the manifest as in goes far and in "to return to the root is to find peace"

interesting information Cheshire cat, btw, I was thinking along the lines of a multiple "angels" that could have come to the aid of Jesus in one way or another before, during or after his arrest...for in other parts of the Bible we read about miraculous interventions, prevention's or escapes such as being in two places at once, walking through walls, being in the lions den, being in a furnace and surviving, walking on water, etc., etc...but methods such as those were not used and going by Bible verses related to that event and their context and content such methods were not meant to be used in this case - so one might ask why Jesus even mentioned that such aid would be precipitated yet implying failure of it to come because it was not available for (although it really was since spiritual beings or help is never farther away than an eye blink) this particular event of his arrest?

I'd say that a Being and or Beings that could lend assistance were no more than a half an eye-blink in time or a distance of millimeter away...just as it is now yet we are not or seldom privy to the workings of such Beings or turnings. (remember that Beings of a higher vibration can see most or all of what is transpiring in the "world" and have the power to intercede here at the drop of a hat or faster if the Spirit moves them to do so, in comparison while or when we are stuck in lower vibrations we can not or seldom see or know of such Beings and the what and why of their doings.

such is trying and nicely conveying as much as humanly possible, yet and or still even the veil ceases...for the "Tao" knows itself when going far, returning and standing still.

well some of those terms are or could be problematic in definition...for instance, "a spiritual kingdom beyond the one that very few experience". well if one thinks of energy and so called matter there is no beyond to either since they are the same thing vibrating at different rates and also relative to the observer and their rate of vibration if any difference is going to be held, even if it can't ultimately be held.

Thanks folks for some reflective considerations...and which I think can and should be continued in several ways! Another quote from the TTC which to me contradicts the op quote in certain ways or has certain implications: Chap. 25 "...Man follows the ways of the Earth The Earth follows the ways of Heaven, Heaven follows the ways of Tao, Tao follows its own ways." Thus there is no separation in "the kingdom of Tao" so to speak...as is no cut-off point, dismissal or demeaning parts of that "kingdom".

yep, mind is a big one, for one comes to find out that it is not their mind (as it seems) but THE mind... so who or what finds that out is a major step that blows our minds ! (lol kind of) mind and all that it is (like memories) will never fully satisfy and never be enough, thus we go on.

Om (I'd say the struck and unstruck) goes both ways which is really a circle if you will, I'd also say there is no Absolute without Om and there is no Om without the Absolute, to say or venture otherwise is not of Vedic based Hindu teachings....

In the heavens "God" and "gods" (or such beings and forces called by many names) are obviously a sovereign and involved force not to be monkeyed with... but on earth they are seldom involved with us human beings in a sovereign way except during or after catastrophic events of evil or horrific damages, both on the personal and more massive population levels, so one might wonder if they are fully following Tao as all of us human beings are constantly lectured to about following? And why do they allow the Mother soul of the earth and all of the beings that live here to go through so much destructive and demonic hell by them not being very involved via their sovereign position and power that is seemingly responsible to help nip such troubles in the bud in the first place and everything else that the Tao Teh Ching advocates that us human beings help with and are responsible for?

Hey silent thunder, hopefully the question is half the answer as I've heard somewhere....

well ljazztrumpet I'd say fear and its related doubt are a big part of a personal inner (and to whatever degree outer) "apocalypse" type of test - so to speak. (adding that if the inner tests are passed the so called outer will follow suit although an apparent outer may seem to come first) Btw, there is lots of talk at this site about this and that method or school to attain enlightenment and what it is, yet we don't hear that much about the price payable per an "apocalypse" type of test and the responsibility aspects,

a comment on will: when or if push comes to shove, "what is against the Tao will soon cease..." yet such an "against" has been going on and repeating since the beginning of the cosmos and all of its beings so it seems there must be more information related to the saying ?? I also get that only through the ultimate test of inner (and to whatever degree outer) apocalypse type troubles will a being be fully tested and proven for the responsibility of enlightenment...

Hello lost in translation, It sounds to me like the first half of your first sentence above nullifies the rest of the concepts that come afterwards if such is given the position and power implied.