3bob

I vote no on a MH pop-up blocker

Jeff, I'm not going to add much in the way of hitting each other over the head with Bible quotes, we already have enough of that going on with Hindu and Buddhist related quotes...(along with some Taoist related ones thrown into the mix) ;-)

Jetsun, I'd say such is still not at the "will" of an individual such as you have mentioned nor at the will of a seeker. - Spirit knows better than both and does its will accordingly per Its own all seeing and knowing wisdom. (in some cases it could be a lot, in some cases it could a little - or anything in between without forcing or lording it over on any party)

MH, "Easy", meaning kind of like wu-wei ? Which btw. could walk right by or bite us on the ass and we might not know it....

Jeff, Manipulating mind energies and forms is not at the level of Grace although it may be kosher within certain levels of spiritual law to do so. Btw. such mental manipulations can also be done at the hellish levels motivated by malice.

none have command over directing divine grace, for if someone did then it would no longer be such....(including a Self realized master who would also no longer be such) what one may have command over is getting themselves out of the way so that Spirit can work through them without resistance.

with mind springing from the Self it will never be destroyed or disappear per-se, but attachments to it can end and veils can be lifted - so in that way one's attachments and veils about it are destroyed and disappear. Spirit does not begrudge the mind anymore than the Tao begrudges the ten thousand.

water and oil do not mix well no matter who or what stirs.

"Long ago, a certain Chuang Tzu dreamt he was a butterfly -- a butterfly fluttering here and there on a whim, happy and carefree, knowing nothing of Chuang Tzu. Then all of a sudden he woke to find that he was, beyond all doubt, Chuang Tzu. Who knows if it was Chuang Tzu dreaming a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming Chuang Tzu?" --

Ok MH, don't kiss that old/new girl friend when you come back around next time and then lets see what happens to the multi-verse?

my body/mind could feel that one coming, but was it really my body/mind since one of those body snatchers got it (like they did with Donald Sutherland) when I was sleeping but only apparently so since the sub-conscious recorded everything...Scream!!

anyway breaking dharma and making karma can only be done where there is dharma and karma, can some of us agree on that without going into abstractions about the absolute and real illusions?

MH, Maybe, but then doesn't the same conundrum recycle all over again?

boy oh boy, anybody here with or without a body/mind getting a headache in their only apparently existing skull?

link to mantra with English text/explanation

I'd say that most among us do not have a solid agreement on the term and meaning for "mind". For instance Brian says, "no thought" but what does that mean? And can another thought describe it... ;-)

thus following laws and many practices that are great and possible for a yogi or that are needed for yoga type methods that also have and need a like minded support system or environment (commonly of householders & general society) that is conducive to such... on the other hand if God or the gods made mankind with part animal body and related nature what do they expect? Btw, living in a very moderate or tropical area also makes for a big difference and changes most peoples food needs and its sources, for instance when part of mankind went through the earlier ice-age in north America, parts of Europe and Asia - details of which I'm not that up on.

Dwai, I'd say that example was of a rather different context and purpose. (by the master involved)

no one breaks dharma or law without incurring karma - no matter how far up the latter they may be - and there is no abstract, hard to figure out or understand thing about that. (in fact the farther up the latter the greater the karma that can kick in for transgression)

Granted all of these details are of major import and impact, still the voice of a normal Man can not reach as far as the voice of a normal Deva can, and the voice of that Deva can not reach as far as the voice of a normal God can, and the voice of that God can not reach as far as the voice of the God of Gods can - yet intent of the heart is clearly seen and heard among all the realms and even if a detail is misplaced a being's true intent does not go unnoticed.

Dwai, I don't buy the idea that a true master is not also a master of voluntary mind and or body habits... thus a negative and obvious unhealthy habit could not really possess them if they actually had such or full Self-mastery. Further, such strange and incongruent excuses along these lines have been used by all sorts of quasi-masters or quasi-yogi's for their minor or intermediate short comings - or in some cases wild adharmic escapades!

Seems a warning might be in order with the "self inquiry" method (or almost any other method) if one gets to self-absorbed in it and disconnects from other ways of dharma thus also making karma? Btw, being a total renunciate secluded in a monastery, cave or forest is not the dharma that a vast majority of people have to work with or on, even though at some point down the line such may come into effect, and give results that only such can give. At times I've been burned out on some of this stuff in the sense of and in relation to that saying, "religion was made for man, man was not made for religion", also in addition to that context Jesus said, "my yoke is easy..." meaning to me in particular that without the key ingredient of love included, all works come to "vanity" - being similar to what Solomon noted.

Still it can turn into a slippery slope. For instance a Hindu proclaiming that Buddhists are also an eternal Self it's just that they don't know it yet, or the historic Buddha proclaiming that Vedic teachings are incorrect about an eternal Self - with both being an affront or insult to the other.

I have also seen them pass through thick skull bone...

The Self always is the Self, it is not the human or particular matrix for Self that determines or can change essential Self...in other words veils may come and go or be like smoke covering the Self but the Self remains regardless of that.