3bob

MH, How does no-thing (or Mystery per chap one of the T.T.C.) smell or taste, look or sound like and also feel like? (suggest looking at chap 14 for a Taoist answer)

Regardless of particular schools and if one refers to the Chandogya Upanishad (as an example) they "spring" from the Self, thus are not separate from the transcendant.

not really according to some who say, "first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is" or how about this one, "samsara properly understood is Nirvana"?

Ok, kind of sounds like you see ParaSiva and the 36* tattvas with connection in the sense of aspects? (*even though there are some differences in Hindu schools concerning the count and placement of tattvas)

Seeker of Healing, Post #5 is the standard line given by many Buddhists - there is a problem with it though being that this is a Hindu sub-forum where Buddhist beliefs may be tolerated to an 'x' degree but imo they are really out of place if or when rudely given as a truism over Sanatana Dharma.

Dwai, I wouldn't make such a quick correlation with jiva, although it may be tempting to simply things - but not per the Buddhists as I've so often heard.

umm, who or what is looking at this "false self" and who or what is doing the dismantling? (thus we tend to have another mind blowing quandary)

so the problematic dichotomy implied with the term "non-self" vs. Self can tend to drive one nuts... while in comparison Shiva-Shakti tends not drive one nuts.

one can not get or acquire realization like one could get some type of thing to add to themselves like mind based knowledge. (being that there is nothing that can be added to or subtracted from the Self) "non-self" is a Buddhist related teaching so it won't really mix with Vedic teachings.

in the end the Earth soul, her helpers and golden ones prevail

Jeff, It seems we are not reading the same text, or surely not understanding it in a similar way: "Paurusha ajnana is that kind of ignorance where in one is unaware of realizing one’s own nature in samadhi. This kind of ignorance is removed by the grace of masters and by meditating upon one’s own Self. And when this ignorance is removed, you find yourself in the real knowledge of Shaivism, which is all being, all consciousness, all bliss. This kind of knowledge is called paurusha jnana. When you possess paurusha jnana, you realize your nature of Self perfectly.

ok, later

Those are fair questions about the quote that I'm not sure about personally. I think it would be safe to say that there are unique experiences and answers per unique people. (yet the general concepts and precepts among those following said path would in general be agreed upon, and far more so per a particular school and teacher)

good point being that inspiration from an inspiring source (including written) can inspire, while a teaching given from a purely conceptual and intellectual pov. as implied has limits related to same. (btw. the term "transmission" is not normally used in the context of just an intellectual teaching when it comes to this subject)

Jeff, Where is that post (originally) that I made? I do get the different levels of insight possible concerning a seemingly contradictory matter, which does not mean one can't point out straight up contradictions - that to me you are beating around the bush about?

Jeff, The contradictions below are not about different levels of insight (on a subject matter) that seem to be contradictions, they are straight up contradictions. Also imo your quotes trying to address this point are off base in this case. "Bauddha jnana without paurusha jnana is useless and will not take you anywhere." soon followed by: "If in this world such a complete master is not to be found, then you should seek one who is only filled with bauddha jnana. He is to be preferred over that master who is filled only with paurusha jnana, because intellectually he will carry you by and by to the end point."

...parts of the previous quote nearer to the end sound contradictory to me how about to you?

by Swami Lakshmanjoo from chapter 14 of, "The Secret Supreme" "Moksha in Kashmir Shaivism and Indian Philosophy The view that ignorance is the cause of bondage, and perfect knowledge is the cause of freedom (moksha), is commonly accepted by all Indian philosophers. Yet, in reality, these philosophers have not completely understood knowledge and ignorance. The Vaishnavites, for example, believe that liberation (moksha) from repeated births and deaths occurs when you are united with para-prakriti (that energy of Being that governs and contains all the activities and conceptions of this universe). And this union with para-prakriti will take place only when you observe in your understanding that the apparent differentiation of this universe is unreal. Then all attachments, pleasures, and pains will come to an end and you will be established in your own real nature. It is this establishment which from their point of view is called moksha. The Advaita Vedantins, on the other hand, have concluded that, in the real sense, moksha is only bliss (ananda) and nothing else. They say that when you are residing in the field of ignorance (samsara), you become the victim of the five-fold veils (kleshas); i.e. avidya (ignorance), asmita (ego), raga (attachment), dvesha (hatred) and abhinivesha (attachment to your own conception). These coverings, which are the cause of your remaining in samsara, should be removed by the practice of tattva-jnana. In this practice, you must mentally negate all that is not your own real nature by thinking, neti, neti, “I am not this, I am not this.” So here you practice thinking, “I am not the physical body, I am not the subtle body, I am not the mind, I am not the life essence (prana).” You must negate all outside elements. And when you reside completely in your own nature, which is that which remains after you negate all outside elements, that knowledge, from their point of view, is called moksha. The tradition of Buddhist philosophers, who are known as the Vijnanavadins, accept, that you are liberated only when your mind is completely detached from all attachments to objectivity, pleasure, pain, and sorrow. They argue that the mind must remain only as mind, pure and perfect mind, because for them the mind is actually pure, filled with light, and detached from all worldly things. It is when the mind becomes attached to worldly things, such as thoughts, pleasures, and pains, that you are carried to samsara. And when these attachments are cancelled and the mind becomes pure, then you are liberated. The philosophers from the Vaibhashika tradition hold that, liberation is attained by deleting the chain of thought’s, just as the flame of a lamp is extinguished. When a lamp is burning, we experience the existence of the flame. When, however, the flame is extinguished, it does not go anywhere. It does not go into the earth or into the ether. When the flame is extinguished, it simply disappears. And the extinguishing of the flame takes place when the oil of the lamp is exhausted. In the same way, when a yogi has crossed over all the pleasures and pains of the world, those pleasures and pains do not go anywhere, they simply disappear. This yogi, who has extinguished the flame of the chain of thoughts by exhausting the wax of the five-fold kleshas, enters into the supreme and perfect peace which is, from their point of view, liberation. "From the Shaivite point of view, these philosophical traditions remain either in apavedya-pralayakala or in savedya-pralayakala. They do not go beyond these states." Apavedya-pralayakala is that state of pralayakala where there is no objectivity. Savedya-pralayakala is that state of pralayakala where there is some impression of objectivity. As an example, take the state of deep sleep. When you wake up from deep sleep and then think, “I was sleeping and I didn’t know anything,” that is the state of apavedya-pralayakala. And when you wake up from the state of deep sleep and think, “I was sleeping peacefully without dreaming,” that is the state of savedya-pralayakala, because you experienced that it was a sweet sleep and so “sweetness” is the object for you in this state. Shaiva philosophy does not recognize the theories of these philosophies concerning liberation (moksha) because, in fact, the yogins of these traditions do not move above the pralayakala state and are not, therefore, situated in real moksha. Our Shaivism explains that jnana (knowledge) is knowing one’s own nature, which is all Being (sat), all consciousness (cit), and all bliss (ananda). Ajnana (ignorance) is ignoring this nature, and this is the cause of the samsara which carries one in the cycle of repeated births and deaths. "Kashmir Shaivism explains that ignorance (ajnana) is of two kinds: paurusha ajnana and bauddha ajnana." Paurusha ajnana is that kind of ignorance wherein one is unaware of realizing one’s own nature in samadhi. This kind of ignorance is removed by the grace of masters and by meditating upon one’s own Self. And when this ignorance is removed, you find yourself in the real knowledge of Shaivism, which is all being, all consciousness, all bliss. This kind of knowledge is called paurusha jnana. When you possess paurusha jnana, you realize your nature of Self perfectly. Bauddha ajnana (intellectual ignorance) occurs only when you are completely ignorant of the philosophical truth of the monistic idea of Shaivism. And bauddha ajnana is removed by studying those monistic Shaiva texts which explain the reality of the Self. Therefore, these texts are the cause of your being carried from bauddha ajnana to bauddha jnana. "Bauddha jnana is thought-based and is developed through the intellect. Paurusha jnana, on the other hand, is practical and is developed through practice." Paurusha jnana is predominant over bauddha jnana because when you possess only paurusha jnana, even then you are liberated in the real sense. In this case, however, liberation is attained only after leaving your body. When, however, at the same time, you attach bauddha jnana to paurusha jnana; which means that, on the one hand, you practice on your own Being and, on the other hand, you go into the philosophical thought of the monistic Shaiva texts and elevate your intellectual being, then you become a jivanmukta, one who is liberated while living. If, however, you possess only bauddha jnana and not paurusha jnana, then you will not attain liberation either while living in the body or at the time of death. Bauddha jnana without paurusha jnana is useless and will not take you anywhere. The study of texts shines perfectly only when there is practical knowledge at the same time. Without practical knowledge, philosophical study is useless. Bauddha jnana will bear fruit only when paurusha jnana is present and not otherwise. If an aspirant is attached only to practical knowledge and not to theoretical knowledge, believing that the only real knowledge is practical knowledge, which is the realizing of ones own nature, then he is incorrect from a Shaiva point of view. If only paurusha jnana is cultivated and bauddha jnana is totally ignored, then there is every possibility that paurusha jnana may decrease day by day, slowly fading away so that in the end it does not remain at all. It is the greatness of bauddha jnana that, with its power, it firmly establishes paurusha jnana. In this respect, therefore, bauddha jnana is more important than paurusha jnana. "In our Shaivism, it is said that when you go in search of a master so that you can be initiated, you should first seek that master who is full of both bauddha jnana and paurusha jnana. Finding him, you should consider him a real master." If in this world such a complete master is not to be found, then you should seek one who is only filled with bauddha jnana. He is to be preferred over that master who is filled only with paurusha jnana, because intellectually he will carry you by and by to the end point. That master who resides only in paurusha jnana would not ultimately be successful in carrying you to that which you seek."

there is a complete I am, and also an i am to be worked on. Karma has (or is) shed-able mass, it's escape velocity includes forgiveness. Ego is a tough nut to crack, it takes a pick-axe from the inside and the outside to do so.

or to put it another way is anyone here still having karma and dealing with mind/spirit transitions? ...i am

Atman is the eternal identity - it sees through the forms without fear from unbound formlessness...

Agreed in the meaning that the transcendent also has an unbreakable connection to and emanation per Shakti. (like the saying of sparks from fire)

Agreed if you mean Infinity is not knowable through a relative and mental "thinker" type of process, for only Self realizes Self, also the "worlds" springing from Self are definitely not negated per-se - see quote below with underlines by me. Chandogya upanishad: "91When one obtains Bliss then he does his duties. 92. The Infinite is Bliss. There is no bliss in anything finite. 93. Where one sees nothing else, hears nothing else, understands nothing else that is the Infinite. 94. Where, however, one sees something else, hears something else, understands something else that is the finite. 95. That which is Infinite is Immortal. That which is finite is mortal. 96. The Infinite is indeed below, above, behind, before, to the right, and to the left. It is indeed all this. 97. He who sees thus, thinks thus, and understands thus, loves the Self, delights in the Self, enjoys the company of the Self. and rejoices in the Self; he becomes the Svarat (Self-king); he becomes independent in all the worlds. 98. But those who know otherwise, are ruled by others and live in perishable worlds; and they become dependent in all the worlds. 99. For one who sees thus, thinks thus and understands thus, Prana springs from the Self; hope springs from the Self; memory springs from the Self; so do Akasa, fire, water, etc. Everything springs from the Self for him. 100. He who sees thus, sees not death, nor disease nor pain; he who sees thus, sees everything, and obtains everything, everywhere."

illusion or delusion are only mistaken perception and such related aspects or attachments, otherwise all is "real" with correct realization.

Jiva is Siva - or That that knows Itself as the one in all and all in one...joyously without dualistic sorrow, speculation or denial of form or formlessness. The Absolute without Its eternal Shakti and knowledge beyond regular knowing - is not so. . Existence and non-existence which mankind thinks of - are moot before That which is never limited to or by birth or death, yet That knows of birth and death veils in time and space, being that That knows the coming of the very first, the leaving of very last, and of Itself as standing still and boundless. That knows Om Also note teaching below from the Chandogya upanishad: (which is getting away from the topic although one might note that desire is not a four letter word in this Upanishad. "1. Harih, Om. There is this city of Brahman (the body), and in it the palace, the small lotus (of the heart), and in it that small ether. Now what exists within that small ether, that is to be sought for, that is to be understood. 2. And if they should say to him: 'Now with regard to that city of Brahman, and the palace in it, i. e. the small lotus of the heart, and the small ether within the heart, what is there within it that deserves to be sought for, or that is to be understood?' 3. Then he should say: 'As large as this ether (all space) is, so large is that ether within the heart. Both heaven and earth are contained within it, both fire and air, both sun and moon, both lightning and stars; and whatever there is of him (the Self) here in the world, and whatever is not (i. e. whatever has been or will be), all that is contained within it.' 4. And if they should say to him: 'If everything that exists is contained in that city of Brahman, all beings and all desires (whatever can be imagined or desired), then what is left of it, when old age reaches it and scatters it, or when it falls to pieces?' 5. Then he should say: 'By the old age of the body, that (the ether, or Brahman within it) does not age; by the death of the body, that (the ether, or Brahman within it) is not killed. That (the Brahman) is the true Brahma-city (not the body 1). In it all desires are contained. It is the Self, free from sin, free from old age, from death and grief, from hunger and thirst, which desires nothing but what it ought to desire, and imagines nothing but what it ought to imagine. Now as here on earth people follow as they are commanded, and depend on the object which they are attached to, be it a country or a piece of land, 6. 'And as here on earth, whatever has been acquired by exertion, perishes, so perishes whatever is acquired for the next world by sacrifices and other good actions performed on earth. Those who depart from hence without having discovered the Self and those true desires, for them there is no freedom in all the worlds. But those who depart from hence, after having discovered the Self and those true desires, for them there is freedom in all the worlds.