3bob

and how is no-thing working with things, where is the verbal contact so to speak?

if Tao is rooted in or sitting in a big brain some where it must be a big one, hehe

completely beyond any and all 'worldly type' value, or priceless beyond any comparison, for instance freedom and truth of Brahman.

if you search for the observer of thought you will find someone very deep

out of your or the mind - you may be on to something there MH...

actually we as Sprit can do much more than water can...

a timeless moment that mind can not nail down - for there is not really a linear type of permanent time with that, yet as I meant before that doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot of work can be skipped on the matrix in time and space

"God" can not stop you from reaching God in an instant, even with mountains of karma and galactic time and space to go through being that Spirit is stronger than any form of magic or methods that would attempt such, for Spirit can not refuse the call or need for Spirit in the beginning, middle or end of working on or with any part of the matrix of form we are in...

No biggy laughingblade, btw the Tao can not be put in a verify box.

MH, Chap 42 TTC. "only no-thing can enter into no space" Lao Tzu (same idea but at the Mystery level)

but an energy double of the physical can walk through said door if the frequency is correct... since all the door is - is energy also at a certain frequency and or density. not that big of a mystery really.

negation or affirmation can both have a "engineering" type aspect, (as Spotless seemingly put it) and as so often pointed out by so many. I'd say Spirit caught in identification per ego/karma's can be freed for awhile with wise, graceful and powerful help thus letting Spirit remember itself. (so to speak), but such a timeless "for awhile" has limits until the soul does all the work and preparation it can - thus reaching a point where Spirit chooses and dominates - for there is no free lunch but there is Grace coming into action - where soul no longer slips or gets stuck per ego and karma's back into limited identifications.

so you can piss pretty far, good luck with that laughingblade.

MH, cool man...

ok, and further definition's about potential could be in order, for instance does Mystery already and always exist or does it have the potential to exist given certain circumstance's which would be the close to the normal meaning or usage of the word potential? For me No-thing or Mystery already and always exists but not in the normal way that we think of or perceive existence, otherwise we would all be screwed - that is if we even existed in the normal way that we think of existence...thus the meaning of potential along these lines or in this context means more like Mystery being able to manifest as much as possible in an energetic universe per cycles and ways yet it also returns to un-manifest, although it never really left or went anywhere.(hehe)

well a thought is also an energy form or form of energy thus such are relatively real in time and space where they originate via their construction with and in mind. So do we say they are illusions or also part of the totality of all energy that is connected to Mystery... the Mystery which btw seems more like an illusion to the mind which can not perceive it

Does the 'Noble eight fold path' , 'Raja yoga or other types of yoga' engineer enlightenment? And what of the many Taoist practices... etc. etc. etc. ? I agree with you Spotless in a way or in the sense that such are preparations thus not a guarantee that can be forced - being that one still has to make a leap of faith along with reaching out into the unknown - which can't be engineered or give predetermined results if that is what you were implying. (?)

ok Brian, "fear" was not the best word to use although it has some relevance as mentioned by Silent Thunder in post 19 and others to whatever extent...

nailing Christ to a cross doesn't hold much water either since neither nails nor death could hold Him... you kind of put some words in my mouth in your last post bubba, I meant a particular galaxy coming to an end yet galaxies and their cycles continue on with the same energy reformed into new galactic manifestations or subsets of same... also when various manifestations, forms and identities are all withdrawn during part of the cycle back to source - then all that is left is the unborn and undying "enlightenment" which could be said to be the Real without change or us, yet really indescribable except through some often over-used transcendental, vague, zenny, poetic, or etc. type hints. Btw #2 if I harped on an "all that is left" (so to speak) as being 'all that there is' along with saying that existence or 'all the rest of it' as being illusions then for me that would be a grandiose way of sticking my head up my ass.

yea many of us know of that transcendent, quasi-whatever sounding stuff Spotless, yet we still have to relate in and to the world, so tell us dharma, karma, form and ego do not exist while you use such tools - haha or hehe...

[text in black from Rich, blue from me]: "Maybe I'm just a beginner at all this, but isn't it traditional to argue that it's the ego which fears it's own dissolution/death? Considering your question directly: Who fears enlightenment? who or what fears love's cutting blade? What do you mean by enlightenment? for starters: joy without its opposite of sorrow kicking in I've heard that enlightenment is about the present, even if that's an all-encompassing present. What do you mean by "sooner or later"? "sooner or later" is from a relative pov in time, space and evolutionary form which does not apply to a non-dual realization of present "so to speak" - is this significant? Or a 'knowing' aside? so to speak - as in alluding to not divorcing manifest from non-manifest "always" - doesn't this add a circularity, begging the question of inevitability? What's the cosmic cycle? On what basis do you assert it's reality other than the authority of some scripture? How can I verify that there's such a thing? Why would one base the idea of enlightenment, however defined, on an unknown?" all types of cycles are more or less circular which is very observable, and on the grandest scale there is the cosmic cycle. (for instance and on a lesser scale galaxies are formed, exist and then fade out or end in some way after billions of years) ((Rich))

or one could also think of the ego as a cocoon serving a purpose, thus not getting to bugged about it

its a good thing that with some of us being like blind ground-hogs that we can find an acorn now and then ;-) btw. it's tougher on an older ground-hog like myself who is kind of slow climbing out of hole in the morning .

ok, although I'd say that the "non-dual Self" (aka Brahman in Hinduism) needs no development for it already is and always complete... (perhaps that which Spotless was alluding to earlier?) yet the matrix for it to fully manifest needs full development. As for Buddhist concepts (if that is what you meant?) regarding dissolution of "Self" or self I won't get into that.

the mind of man is an instrument or device which includes a very great range of perception and conception but not the full range beyond duality...