3bob

R.T., and for those that have not yet realized inherent existence, don't worry inherent existence is not going anywhere....

nope, lead does not rust

iron is not gold, use the salt test

those were some fun, informative and unexpected reply's folks - along with serious points about the environmental concerns. Thanks for joining in. A guy I used to work with said that when they were vacationing n Belize they saw lots of banana plantations along the rivers, problem was that almost everything else was dead in those areas except for the bananas, including many fish since the run off of chemicals from the land into rivers had a major impact on them. I was somewhat taken aback by his graphic description or account and ever since then I only buy organic bananas - hoping that the label is at least half true but who really knows for sure? Btw, I like organic coconut milk (not water) and use it instead of milk and so far so good with my body getting along with it. A note of caution: If anyone here is crazy enough to try and steal a healthy banana from Taomeow then I think it safe to say they deserve what they get.

cool cosmos picture! our solar system is so very, very tiny and a single being on the surface of the earth is even smaller yet, but what moves and is deep inside that single being is equal in essence to the mover of the cosmos.

faith in doubts in the sense that they have the potential to be resolved when proven - one way or another for whom the related subject applies to. I suggest we think outside the box now and then instead of cornering ourselves inside it with un-flexible attachments to our versions of truisms.

ok, and another example: having faith in doubts until proven otherwise... thus the often half baked connotation "that faith is blind" is false.

faith is not a four letter word... there are all sorts of or levels of faith... for instance a parent takes good care of their kid then the kid has reasons and feelings of a kids faith in his parents. There are dozens of simple examples that could be brought up including science having a certain faith in using scientific principles or methods that may be built upon.

they speak but such is roaring silence that is not so easily heard

you tube video on Swami Sivananda

I'd say that with Tao being "Mystery" we can not nail it down as verb, noun or any "thing" else yet I get your point about certain aspects - aspects that are referred to in Taoist teachings - yet no one can exactly prove most of those aspects (including the "Way of Tao") unless we are only talking about the very limited and thin proofs that the 5 senses can provide for that which they can observe - which is still not 100% proof of what I hear you saying as the "Way" aspect.

MH, yet even the 10,000 are not separate from the Tao to which they to will return, meaning they are not going to go someplace in "no-space" completely separate and independent from the Tao. (in case that is what you meant?)

MH, what level of separation are you alluding to?

enlightenment level knowledge (related to such matters) is not based on belief. Btw, I have no problem with the place and purposes of faith properly used - meaning not blind faith without any facts and experience to go along with it.

let's give our animal buddies a break and get back to the idea of nothing gained and nothing lost: when the One returns to the Tao has the Tao gained anything or lost anything? when the Tao gives birth to the One does it gain anything or lose anything? when the One returns to the Tao must it die in a sense just as it was born in a sense? (so that the next cycle of the One can then also be born again) and or whatever folks might be thinking?

and there are whales that beach themselves...and ants that sacrifice themselves for their fellow ants to further accomplish things

oh and what potential is there outside of a One that contains all potentials

hell I don't know, let's see what pops out of the bushes?

well Dawei let's up the ante and say someone attains enlightenment, does that mean somewhere in the cosmic scheme of things that someone else does not and is that fair? (being if we accept the idea that there are only so many slots existing for only so much critical help in attaining such... btw, if the historic Buddha checked out of the system of the One then someone else seemingly had to check in to fill his old slot)

I can dig that thunder man.

I wonder if I lose 20 pounds and the totality of the cosmos still has to balance out then who gets those 20 pounds I once had and is it fair?

ok, you win Karl, enjoy

umm, lets not to carried away... I could pull some of that convoluted and projected stuff myself but I need to go and do some honey-do's before getting to attached to not doing so. Know what I mean?

dropping back in: nothing wrong with a healthy ego that serves it purpose and realizes it limits, in fact I'd say that is (obviously) an important factor in all of this mystic stuff...

MH, I don't know about you but I wouldn't mind losing say 20 pounds, then I'd be less attached to the earth by gravity