3bob

Karl, I think those were some good points you expressed in post #4 although I would not make a hard and fast rule that ties non-attachment to nihilism... granted there are slippery nihilistic slopes that one can get caught on in most paths, including in certain interpretations of Buddhism - but in the case of non-attachment per the insight of wise Buddhist teachings such a generalization does not hold water for me. A simple and partial analogy could be demonstrated with the Chinese finger trap. The harder one pulls on its attachment to their fingers the tighter the trap is set, yet and only with the insight of that result can one then loosen the attachment to their fingers by not pulling so that they can get free of the trap.

well one angle we can look at on this matter is to our Buddhist buddies, namely to the wisdom teachings about non-attachment - being that the opposite or attachment is when forms of fear basically come into play.... the ideas about potential are good but an unintended and self-induced counter potential tends to come along with that which is tricky.

by the way when was the last time a healthy person was concerned about and writing down the chemical reactions going on inside of their stomach at any particular moment, or wastes going out of the lower channel? (thus a similar idea just a different area that points to letting the intelligence of inner workings work)

Quoted from Swami Lakshmanjoo website (link below) "Moksha in Kashmir Shaivism and Indian Philosophy The view that ignorance is the cause of bondage, and perfect knowledge is the cause of freedom (moksha), is commonly accepted by all Indian philosophers. Yet, in reality, these philosophers have not completely understood knowledge and ignorance. The Vaishnavites, for example, believe that liberation (moksha) from repeated births and deaths occurs when you are united with para-prakriti (that energy of Being that governs and contains all the activities and conceptions of this universe). And this union with para-prakriti will take place only when you observe in your understanding that the apparent differentiation of this universe is unreal. Then all attachments, pleasures, and pains will come to an end and you will be established in your own real nature. It is this establishment which from their point of view is called moksha. The Advaita Vedantins, on the other hand, have concluded that, in the real sense, moksha is only bliss (ananda) and nothing else. They say that when you are residing in the field of ignorance (samsara), you become the victim of the five-fold veils (kleshas); i.e. avidya (ignorance), asmita (ego), raga (attachment), dvesha (hatred) and abhinivesha (attachment to your own conception). These coverings, which are the cause of your remaining in samsara, should be removed by the practice of tattva-jnana. In this practice, you must mentally negate all that is not your own real nature by thinking, neti, neti, “I am not this, I am not this.” So here you practice thinking, “I am not the physical body, I am not the subtle body, I am not the mind, I am not the life essence (prana).” You must negate all outside elements. And when you reside completely in your own nature, which is that which remains after you negate all outside elements, that knowledge, from their point of view, is called moksha. The tradition of Buddhist philosophers, who are known as the Vijnanavadins, accept, that you are liberated only when your mind is completely detached from all attachments to objectivity, pleasure, pain, and sorrow. They argue that the mind must remain only as mind, pure and perfect mind, because for them the mind is actually pure, filled with light, and detached from all worldly things. It is when the mind becomes attached to worldly things, such as thoughts, pleasures, and pains, that you are carried to samsara. And when these attachments are cancelled and the mind becomes pure, then you are liberated. The philosophers from the Vaibhashika tradition hold that, liberation is attained by deleting the chain of thought’s, just as the flame of a lamp is extinguished. When a lamp is burning, we experience the existence of the flame. When, however, the flame is extinguished, it does not go anywhere. It does not go into the earth or into the ether. When the flame is extinguished, it simply disappears. And the extinguishing of the flame takes place when the oil of the lamp is exhausted. In the same way, when a yogi has crossed over all the pleasures and pains of the world, those pleasures and pains do not go anywhere, they simply disappear. This yogi, who has extinguished the flame of the chain of thoughts by exhausting the wax of the five-fold kleshas, enters into the supreme and perfect peace which is, from their point of view, liberation. “From the Shaivite point of view, these philosophical traditions remain either in apavedya-pralayakala or in savedya-pralayakala. They do not go beyond these states.” Apavedya-pralayakala is that state of pralayakala where there is no objectivity. Savedya-pralayakala is that state of pralayakala where there is some impression of objectivity. As an example, take the state of deep sleep. When you wake up from deep sleep and then think, “I was sleeping and I didn’t know anything,” that is the state of apavedya-pralayakala. And when you wake up from the state of deep sleep and think, “I was sleeping peacefully without dreaming,” that is the state of savedya-pralayakala, because you experienced that it was a sweet sleep and so “sweetness” is the object for you in this state. Shaiva philosophy does not recognize the theories of these philosophies concerning liberation (moksha) because, in fact, the yogins of these traditions do not move above the pralayakala state and are not, therefore, situated in real moksha. Our Shaivism explains that jnana (knowledge) is knowing one’s own nature, which is all Being (sat), all consciousness (cit), and all bliss (ananda). Ajnana (ignorance) is ignoring this nature, and this is the cause of the samsara which carries one in the cycle of repeated births and deaths. “Kashmir Shaivism explains that ignorance (ajnana) is of two kinds: paurusha ajnana and bauddha ajnana.” Paurusha ajnana is that kind of ignorance wherein one is unaware of realizing one’s own nature in samadhi. This kind of ignorance is removed by the grace of masters and by meditating upon one’s own Self. And when this ignorance is removed, you find yourself in the real knowledge of Shaivism, which is all being, all consciousness, all bliss. This kind of knowledge is called paurusha jnana. When you possess paurusha jnana, you realize your nature of Self perfectly...." http://www.lakshmanjoo.org/teachings/secretsupreme/kashmir-shaivism-the-secret-supreme-chapter-14/

yea and if all the Buddhists were only of the Zen school then they could better understand what each other is saying... (without all the different schools and their particular jargons) Anyway, first there is the jargon, then there is no jargon then there is...

my what big toenails he has, don't piss off an ostrich btw, who or where are these ordinary and everyday beings? (per another's pigeon holing)

RV. umm, if an incorrect or correct needle is incorrectly inserted in a major or even certain minor zones serious physical damage can be done - that is a straight up and verifiable point/fact... I understand what you are getting at in your post but that is not quite where I was coming from although such is or can be a factor with various and or subtle energies. (although such is not so easy to verify or prove by most in comparison) Aloha

sure does...

an acupuncture person with some "knowledge" could do a great deal of unintended physical damage to a client, -- the unintended psychological/soul damage that could be done via a person with some "knowledge" of subtle energies and methods could be a 100 times that per a comparative analogy regarding their student, -- for there are very hungry and predatory beings ready and waiting for their next prey and meal to come along... either on this side or on the other side. (btw, that is not a speculation)

that's an easy one considering the trickery of mind...

even with all the hell going on in our world's there are and always will times like, "Saturday in the park..." that can be seen and felt and that rise up and dance with the life force which will not be denied! By Chicago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHPz-OcjH8s

could be - then again there is always the "four-fold negation" that could settle many arguments by putting them in its context, although there could be multiple arguments as to what the four-fold negation means - thus more fun

may this string go on for as long as people want it to go on...

well we don't exactly and each have a separate God principle within us, for it is really us beyond only apparent forms (human or otherwise) of separation. And yes (up to a point) there is a separate 'I' of egotism but beyond that there is a non-separate 'Eye' of God.

I'll defer to letting the Buddhists in their own forum hash things out... have fun.

many that give Buddhist sounding summations sound nihilistic, self-deated, counter-productive or fatalistic - compared to the "Wonder of wonders" that the historic Buddha spoke of.

that looks and sounds like two instances of coffee... and again if we were to go by our self-deated and nihilistic Buddhists, there is no Shakti besides even really understanding what Shakti or it's permutations are... and we could ask which is first, the Buddha or the Mother, the chicken or the egg...?

denial of Shakti is ignorance mistaken for wisdom, simple as that

many of us have flashes of (or experiences) enlightenment, only a few are enlightenment itself walking around and not falling back to the states of mind you speak of. (which is where cause and effect take place)

Jetsun, your quote does not cover the historic Buddha speaking of suffering as was previously mentioned, thus suffering can not be written off with non-duality stuff - even if there are such aspects of interpretation and the recounting of such experience .

Bindi, Un-develop might be or convey a better connotation, for Self needs no development, no refinement and thus no add-on's. although soul as directed by Spirit needs development as a matrix for Self to work through but that's it...

Jetsun, Where does it say or imply in Buddhism that there "isn't any suffering" ? (along with a solution to same) There are the Four Noble Truths along with the Noble Eight fold path that addresses most all the details of Buddhism to reduce and overcome the many forms of suffering, thus they contradict what you are saying... but if you or someone else can point out Buddhist doctrine that says there is no suffering I'd like to see it...

egotism can be gross or subtle, regardless of that it is one clever s.o.b. and it takes help to reveal it to and keep it under the light of Spirit where it loses power and dies.

Jetsun, what you are saying could also be used to say that there is no suffering or it doesn't exist - but since that would be counter to and is not a Buddhist teaching it goes to show that you've come up with your own variation that is not Buddhist (if that happens to be where you coming from?)...

looking at 5-6 different schools is something many can do, what many of us can not do is follow more than one all the way...