3bob

Hello Bindi, Considering your interest in Vedic/Hindu related teachings have you come across those of Lord Siva as Lord Nataraja? I find them to be very informative when it comes to some of the very difficult questions....

those stages are for the body, mind, emotions and soul if you will, for if "Self" had to gain and attain a stage then it would also be possible to lose or not retain such a stage.

Self has no notions about It-Self and has no need to look within, (as the term Self is used in the Upanishads) and looking the from the inside out is only a manner of speaking for Self sees (or is) Self in all Beings, which is one of the secrets that is right under our noses often going unseen. if you want to use the word self without a Capitol S then that is of a different meaning.

why would they not feel free ? besides as we all know this is Bindi's thread although we often forget that.

Anyway, lets just say for a moment that the Self does not need to develop anything to be It-Self; for instance it doesn't need to clear any chakras or have kundalini rising to be itself, it doesn't need 3rd eye ability or blue seed attainment for ultimate consciousness or being-ness, it doesn't need transmissions to spiritually jack itself up, it doesn't need concepts, ruminations or pro and con arguments to nail itself down, thus it does not need nor can it get proof of itself from outside of itself... for only our mental/emotional selves veiled from true identity think that grasping at such "mystical" things will end their worries - (although such things or tools do have a place and purpose) - a worry which happens when, "looking from the outside-in" and not being able to see, so why not just for a moment imagine the following (which may sound dualistic but is not), - look from the inside-out and see that there is no need to worry -

I'm not sure of all your meanings above but I do see that during instinctive "fight or flight" mode a persons thinking is not in gear or in the same gear as it is during moments of reflection... thus and at many other times I consider thought and written words to have importance and able to make a difference, (as you obviously know) for instance most of us come to ask at some point in our lives "why have my loved ones come to suffering, why does human kind come to suffering , why do we bring this upon ourselves and will it ever end? There are also moments in everyone's life with feelings and thoughts that have a "pull" (as you put it) towards Source via the Sacred Life force. (so even if the ways of the world tend to bury such - a Sage "is kind to the kind and He is also kind to the unkind, for virtue is kind" per T.T.C. 49, which is and granted something that the rat race does not understand yet most of us rats (a.k.a. egotism) get tired of racing at some point or another and start to turn away, and if exposure to the empowered words or writings of a decent person or a Sage come into play at such a turn in a persons life then they can make a difference to bring about progress or acts of dharma -if you will.

Taomeow, (and those in this thread) Below are parts of a post of yours that got me to pondering more about the Taoist meaning of The One which was also mentioned earlier. Namely the image of a mother-child relationship of the Tao to the One. A possible context to that image is of a child that has emerged as a created and separate being. (although given nurture from its mother) So I wonder- is the Taoist perspective of the One along the lines of such a context? In other words the difference to that context and what I see is that the connection between the Tao and One is never broken, which could include the image of the "cord" never being cut, thus such a child is never truly separated from it's mother as a created and independent being on its own....and if that connection is unbreakable per the Way of Tao then it also stands that a beginning and ending of the One is not to be found via a linear view or even in a "finite" framework, just as the beginning and end of a circle is not to be found along a circular and connected line. Further, if we extrapolate on this idea then all beings within or under the One are also connected, although extending through myriads of permutations whereas the Tao and One could be said to be of a one-to-one connection with only one permutation or transformation - that comes and goes in either apparent or relative directions. Add to this the idea that nothing can slip away from the One which leaves none that can be truly lost or left behind outside of the One - and thus also toTao. Anyway that is my take. I'm curious how you and folks in this thread see this? ""Being comes from nonbeing" -- Laozi -- but the opposite is also true, and not "once" but "always" -- "nonbeing reverts back to being." It is an eternal pulse with no beginning or end, this part is true, but within this pulse, any "being" has a beginning, middle, and end. A new "being" may come from nonbeing once it ends, but all things manifest are finite, only the unmanifest is infinite, the source of all being and nonbeing, all potentials -- far exceeding what has "already" manifested as "being" and will "in the long run" manifest as being. Potentials exist within nonbeing and are not equal to manifestations. Nonbeing is always infinitely greater, and its pull on all "being" is irresistible -- return! As is its push on all "being" -- begin, go play! This is the unified tao-in-stillness/tao-in-motion which is the mother of all things. Not one half of her, not either half of her. Both are tao, and neither is the whole tao. The whole tao is a being-nobeing pulse of stillness-motion. The mantra of taoism is, "the way of tao is motion and the pattern of this motion is return." Being returns to nonbeing. Nonbeing reverts to being". By Taomeow

agreed that opinions based on experience are not easy to come by like the opinions based on concepts are. (which can be a dime a dozen) another term I'd use instead of non-being is non-thing... with non-thing not meaning nothing. it doesn't seem like Taoism gets into the nihilistic problems that interpretations of Buddhism sometimes do and that is partly where I'm coming from and relate better to a term like Mystery as a pointer.

....continued: as for the : "First and foremost is Yuan-shih T'ien-tsun - the First Principal. He has no beginning and no end. (*thus no beginning or end via non-being) He existed "before the void and the silence, before primordial chaos." He is self-existing, changeless, limitless, invisible, contains all virtues, is present in all places and is the source of all truth". I'm taking the quote above at face value without knowing hardly anything about the different schools of Taoism. (and the possible infighting or differences that may exist or be taking place?) Anyway if the quote is taken at face value as it reads above then there is no indication saying that the "First Principle" is a child of Tao manifested in time and space with a - beginning and an end - (via non-being) Do you see what I mean although with yourself following a different school?

wine is generally stronger than beer, worse is mixing the two! (not more than a few drinks a month for me also Dwai, and I try to look away from the zombie movies to)

Hello Taomeow, From the dictionary: Non-Being "the state of not being; nonexistence." The above definition is the common one and I think it can cause some misunderstandings, If it was defined as no-thing (with a hyphen) which is not nothing that would sit differently with me but the general definition does not allude to that.... Anyway and from your fine post: "Tao gives birth to One. Tao and "One" are a mother-child relationship, not one and the same. "One" is where all further things manifest come from and originate, but "One" itself is a manifestation, not the source. So any unification back to the source will of necessity have to absorb this oneness. The only way it can be done is by reverting to wuji, which is nonbeing, tao-in-stillness, and the only way being can come is from nonbeing." By Taomeow I agree with the underlined text above if the implied meaning of no-thing is not nothing (?) for then I've also stated or said something similar to what I think you have. I also realize that the T.T.C. talks about non-being or "Nothing" (for instance in Chapter 43) but I question that terms meaning as it is generally interpreted since and again I replace the words Nothing or non-being and their general connotations with 'no-thing' that hopefully alludes to and is heard as "Mystery" - if someone reads that compared to "nothing" which does not allude to Mystery to me. Admittedly I'm not a member of any Taoist school or it's training so I will not match up in those ways and terms as far as I know.... Thanks again for the - lot to ponder- posts and I will be commenting more on your most recent one as time permits. Bob

umm, no need for a sorry right? & no need for a sort of, "holier than thou" comparison either, right? Btw, Jesus ate fish so how un-vegetarian and un-pure of Him according to some people, we could go on and on including with what the historic Buddha ate and what some yogi's or saints sometimes drink... and who said or projected anything about drugs besides you? Holy have a cow dude.

as a matter of fact I just finished a cold one not to long ago, btw, cheers sounds like you could use it...

ok and now that everyone reading knows where you both stand from now on I suggest you message each other in private to further pursue your relationship...

(some edits made in italics to clarify earlier post) lots to ponder there Taomeow, I'll touch on a couple for now: in #8 "In going away from the Way there's a point of no return" ...well if we agree that everything and everyone is within "The One" (even though such contains permutations within it) then such an everything and everyone can not be gained or lost by the One, meaning the One does not become greater or lesser than what it is; along with the idea of the One returning to Tao per completed "fourfold cosmic cycles" which includes everything and everyone within it (again as put forth in the idea that the One is not able to gain or loose anything or anyone that would make it lesser or greater) thus if we agree on those points there is ultimately a "return" for everything and everyone. (meaning no loss of them since going independent of the One to something other than The One - which is contained under the Tao is not possible) In #1: "it's an inherent property of non-being to form a center of being". That's a biggy which is hard for me to get a handle on... I relate more to the quote below: "Yuan-shih T'ien-tsun -- The First Principal: First and foremost is Yuan-shih T'ien-tsun - the First Principal. He has no beginning and no end. (*thus no beginning or end via non-being) He existed "before the void and the silence, before primordial chaos." He is self-existing, changeless, limitless, invisible, contains all virtues, is present in all places and is the source of all truth. *my insert Thus Being beyond non-being and being as commonly spoken of or concieved of - and further meaning that Being as the "First Principal" does not come from non-being (Btw, I have no problem if someone wants to change the He to a She since gender as we know it is really moot at that point) In #2-5 I think I agree along all those lines. In #6-7 not so sure and pending complications, variables and relativity Thanks for your time and posts - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - next day continuation : some rhetorical like questions or points: In #6: Does Tao have a soul that makes mistakes or is she the Soul/Spirit Itself without fail? (a potential complication - yes?) Regarding the laws of the I-Ching you have studied - do they not have mechanical like variables that can range from both exquisite order to difficult "bad luck" disorder? If so who or what falls under those laws, is it not all things and beings within or under the One and on to the Ten Thousand thus leaving only "Tao to follow its own ways" * free of those laws. (*per the end of chapter 25 of the T.T.C.) As for the "monsters" they do not and can not come into play until well after "The Three" in a going away sense from those three laws....and if we agree that that is the case then there is not equality under the laws of the I-Ching per-se but relativity per position related to points of permutation that range from great order and law (of The One) to lesser order and lawlessness. So indeed prices are paid "to be far" and also "to return" but then the books are balanced so to speak.

I think it safe to say that most of us can handle seeing a little dirty laundry... but not a 3/4 ton truck load of it with "tit for tat" written all over it... whether subtle or not so subtle.

Taomeow, As for the "deranged" is that where you put the blame or do you always hold to the idea that Tao allows for and in a way powers the deranged through "bad luck" (and the related points you made in post 56) and thus the root blame could be traced back to Tao? (even though "that which is against Tao will soon cease to be" even if that "soon" takes millions of years to transpire and in the meantime might result in the malicious destruction the physical universe along with all of its manifest life forms?)

Bindi's original post (and some others) is not boring, besides how could a smart cat ever really get bored?

Songtsan, Ramp that up to the mostly invisible to us "heavenly" realms and forms or processes of consumption are still taking place just with a different and non-malice feeling that is opposite to that which Taomeow is bringing up as derangement. Also at the last crossroads - so to speak - only the, "Supreme Being is the eater of death" to give a paraphrased excerpt from an Upanishad.

I'd say that what could be called anti-Tao can reach a long ways to upset the "natural fourfold cosmic cycle" by various willful and unfortunate twisting's, but only so far for so long - and if that wasn't true then we as human beings and the rest of universe and even the quintessential Tao would have been screwed way before our conception.

ok, the life-force can cut across what we think of as animal instincts in ways not often seen, but in general predators have claws and big teeth for reasons besides anything mankind has done, and if there were no humans on the earth they would still be using those claws and teeth per "nature", and if they didn't use them it would hurt an eco-system in other ways - until and unless the need for predators evolved away somehow over who knows how long of time... anyone want to see a world without hawks and eagles to name just two wild and beautiful creatures?

details in the context of industrial equipment, ships, trains, chemical plants, power plants (like 3 mile island), etc. are extremely important! When you read about a horrible oil spill in the ocean that adversely affects a large eco-system, a train derailment with dozens injured or worse, deadly chemical compounds released near residential areas, a jet liner going down resulting in the deaths of hundreds of people, power black outs that cause havoc, etc... it is often because someone (or a combined group) forgot or were to lazy, cheap or careless about following details that doesn't mean all such details are 100% mistake proof or foolproof but they should at least be at a good and proven default level for personal and public safety. And from such defaults someone needs to review and improve upon existing details - in other words to think outside of the box creatively and then prove out and implement better and new details or the need to make changes in old details as related to this context..

Wind surfing looks great! I've never tried it but I've watched people flying along at high speed! (both in the ocean and in the Columbia River - a favorite area for it) I can directly relate to your story of getting tangled up underwater being that one of my favorite surfing spots was more or less in kelp beds. So if or when you wiped-out and got tangled up with kelp along with the waves white-water holding you under you sure as heck better not panic or get frantic!! which in many cases would just entangle one further and use up the oxygen or breath you had left- so it's like you said - carefully disengage, find the surface and go at it again. Also swimming in the ocean, body surfing, skin diving all of that is such an elemental blast! (although certain precautions do need to be taken with activities involving the ocean, rivers or lakes, - not unlike when on land and hiking in Grizzly bear habitat in parts of the northwestern US and also Alaska with it's larger brown bear where people are not at the top of the food chain! )

Taomeow, Thank you for your time, effort and the thought provoking information you've put into your reply's above! A pointer I may have given was partly derived from my chance stumbling around I can relate to some of this in a way with my experiences of spending a lot of time around the Pacific ocean many years ago, more specifically in it as a surfer who liked and went to the more secluded and less crowded beaches and breaks. If one spends enough time out in the water watching the waves and all the intricacies of tides and shifting patterns of a particular area one can see some developments coming and going that are fairly predictable yet others that come about more unpredictably... for instance there are sets of waves with regular intervals and there are also what are called peak sets that combine to form waves out of the norm for that day, and occasionally there are big hairy rouge waves that catch almost everyone by surprise! (meaning one gets blasted by them breaking on your head so to speak since almost no one is in the right position to avoid or catch them for a ride... but if one is "lucky" and gets a sixth sense feeling at the right moment then they start paddling for a wave that by all discernible factors will never arrive yet rather suddenly it forms up and there they are in the right position at the right time to catch it. (or avoid it if it's to big for them to handle) Aloha

Jesus never did out of the ordinary acts without being moved by the Spirit to do so, thus not by His need alone, along with the fact that he had zero interest in private bragging rights. (also knowing that, "loose lips sink ships" so to speak)