3bob

People, consider moving your happy Buddhist discussion to the Buddhist forum - where it obviously belongs.

Rigdzgin, that was a good point you made earlier about extinction. Sorry for side-tracking your op - I'll now take my leave from this sub-forum for awhile.

Steve, Obviously you submitted a quote that leans HEAVILY on and uses the term "soul" within it, so what the hell (?) are you not an advocate of the quote you shared or are you just playing some kind of devils advocate with it? (which is one way to skin a cat so to speak) TI, Obviously you are and have been all over the map for a very long time with and between Buddhism and Vedic teachings...btw, as you touched on in your post there are all sorts of interpretations regarding reincarnation - and again the Buddhist and Vedic interpretations are mostly or totally apart! I don't care if you guys want to eat Buddhist cake with Vedic frosting or the other way around, (and I to appreciate aspects of both) I'm just suggesting that such differences supported by very strong doctrine and various teachers is made clear as possible to others when we get into these subjects.

Well Steve to be more specific: In Buddhism there is no "soul" as mentioned and or as alluded to in your quote by John Donohue, instead there is the dealing with aggregates and or composites that are often said to be nothing more than illusions. Contradiction serves a purpose just as the four-fold-negation does up to a point, but one can't eat them like multi-grain and sprouted, organic, non-gmo, no-high-fructose corn syrup, no additives or preservative's, no-trans-fat, and added organic seeds that all add up to a complete protein, vitamin and mineral food along with fiber for good measure.

Steve, I hear you professing some interesting non-reconcilable contradictions in your posts that plays to teachings that are 180 degrees off from each other... and its nice in way that you make such stretch's but such also goes against well recognized doctrine of both those ways which I think should be pointed out while you are at - thus we have Steve's variation of two differing doctrines. As for me I see no way to gloss over the repetitive fact that a kind person like the Dalai Lama is walking around saying no-atman, no-atman, no-atman, etc... while Self-realized or Atman -realized Gurus are doing no such thing.

that "rest" in the deepest sense is in or of the True Self hidden in plain sight and which never wears out or down, and It has no problem with True identity, thus being beyond some vague and often heartless sounding concept of the void, for without True identity or Self all else would end up being in vain... thus there are warnings given by both the Buddhist and Vedic teachers that no assumptions can be made about "no-self" per Buddhism or "True Self" per the Vedas - btw, it's safe to assume these ideas will be argued about until the end of time.

Manitou, I don't use the term extinction since the term 'attachment' is probably a more relatable one....(for me anyways) thus to lose attachments that bring about or are related to suffering for oneself and others would be following dharma. As for the term "mind" I mostly take it's meaning as it is defined under Vedic teachings which do not match up in meanings with Buddhism. I'd also add that by doctrine (or at least by widely and commonly held interpretations of same) that Buddhists reject all other paths (or vehicles) as being inferior to theirs. (along with some forms of infighting or disagreement among their own sub-divisions as to which of them are closest to their founders teachings) gotta run, take care

Hi Manitou, Obviously this is the Buddhist forum and they have their own vehicles.... Thus it is problematic to use the term "Tao" in a purely Taoist context here although I think it safe to say that there is some common ground among aspects of the different teachings. As for the word "reversion" imo that sounds like another one of those debatable type terms that are misused and or misunderstood in the "West". Btw, here is what the TTC says about Tao going far and returning, and which will not jive at all with what some Buddhists say: TTC. 25. THERE was Something undefined and yet complete in itself, Born before Heaven-and-Earth. Silent and boundless, Standing alone without change, Yet pervading all without fail, It may be regarded as the Mother of the world. I do not know its name; I style it "Tao"; And, in the absence of a better word, call it "The Great." To be great is to go on, To go on is to be far, To be far is to return. Hence, "Tao is great, Heaven is great, Earth is great, King is great." Thus, the king is one of the great four in the Universe. Man follows the ways of the Earth. The Earth follows the ways of Heaven, Heaven follows the ways of Tao, Tao follows its own ways.

there is no extinction per-se, there is return, btw the Buddha expressed thankfulness about the experience of being human for without it there would have not been a return.

that's what she revealed... a singer beyond compare with a subtle song that never ends yet is always new, thus death dies before her.

Her well and the song from it are so deep deeper than we can see or hear, yet she opens our eyes and touches our hearts, Her body has been wounded but her being has not been broken While demons try to undo her She has not been undone. And Death learned long ago not to try and take her as he died trying to do so....

From the T.T.C. (different context but along the same lines) 52. ALL-under-Heaven have a common Beginning. This Beginning is the Mother of the world. Having known the Mother, We may proceed to know her children. Having known the children, We should go back and hold on to the Mother. In so doing, you will incur no risk Even though your body be annihilated. Block all the passages! Shut all the doors! And to the end of your days you will not be worn out. Open the passages! Multiply your activities! And to the end of your days you will remain helpless. To see the small is to have insight. To hold on to weakness is to be strong. Use the lights, but return to your insight. Do not bring calamities upon yourself. This is the way of cultivating the Changeless.

I never go there, are they men or boys?

There is the soul being of the Earth, and she is beautiful and true, also witness to the historic Buddha who was witness to Her.

karma doesn't give two cents about all of our beliefs and high sounding and well reasoned and opinions, it works flawlessly and relentlessly to kick our ass if that is what we have earned and returns kindness if that is what we've shared... Om

that's true MH, and about the only hope for mankind.... since we have destroyed so much of our environment; btw, it's much harder to bring or help something come back like a truly balanced and natural eco-system, than it is to destroy it. The day is coming when the Earth will be free of the evil forces at work here...

living in a place like a moderate forest in complete freedom from the world and its man-made problems, along with everything one might need in various natural resources to be healthy and happy would be nice but such might only apply to 1/10,000 of 1% of what is left and tucked away in remote areas on this earth. Grizzly bear habitat is protected but not human habit, for such is mostly owned and ruled by money and power grubbing government's, corporations, and some rich folks, the rest of us make due after the powers that be are done with us. (directly or indirectly) Don't believe me just look around.

that's right FmAm, you will never find proof in your mind or anyone else's for - the Spirit that is - since mind can not hold it or give it to you, which is related to what Steve said as to why we suffer through mind identifications instead of using and keeping mind in its place as the great tool it was meant to be...but not letting it take over. Btw, if we give Spirit an inch it will give us a mile for it is behind the true smile.

Yes, the four fold negation delineates the limits of reason nicely but it is not very uplifting to the heart in comparison to the T.T.C. where it simply says, "the Tao gave birth to the One", understand that and all these questions about existence are like beating our heads against the wall. (on purpose )

What's with all the 3rd eye hype? It's a major mind power that can be used spiritually or abused demonically... also why do us rookies think about and desire to open something if we can't really close it - if or when needed? Btw, there are those that are super intuitive and insightful yet wisely never tinker around with certain practices on their own related to 3rd eye stuff yet in effect they have a partial opening in a key and important way. (although without all the levels of astral visionary stuff - which falls under "the need to know" saying anyway)

one might ask how much of this stuff can one gain and thus also lose?

Dawei, apparently you misunderstood my Solomon quote or I misunderstood your reply?

without true self or the working in that direction in one way or another "all is the vanity of vanities" which is where I'd say some nihilistic prone Buddhists end up.

Anyway, my first post was another way of trying to say that all sorts of visionary stuff is said to be a fringe benefit of realization and not the true goal in itself, (and or not the true Self) more so if one gets stuck in some grand realm although that would seem to be better than getting stuck in some un-grand one.

....And of course it would or could be dangerous to dabble with any of this stuff without being under the direction and help of a true teacher! (and lineage)