3bob

TI, I'd say you should make mention that your posted link above leads directly off to another thread and not this one. ... in regards to many of your yoga related quotes... I'd ask how many of us here are interested in and speak at length of it's foundations of yama and niyama with the same level of energy, detail and or excitement that is often heard about visions and such? The answer to that question should be obvious and telling...

I'd say that the "point of no return" includes full realization of the impact of one's actual deeds and also further potential for both good or evil without there being pretense about same - and then the irrevocable action of surrender of one's personal designs that brings them into unveiled alignment with spirit through deep in bones soul, heart and mind knowingness of such that can't be twisted around, denied or covered back up with a lie.

Steve, I think an agreed upon definition could be ball-parked as it has more or less been done via the many mystics, saints, sages, masters, etc. in well recognized and regarded texts or witness that recounts such experience. As far as 3rd eye abuse goes I have to disagree with you in the sense that until a soul has passed the point of no return the potential for failure and possible abuse still remains - for instance the historic Buddha, who was very far advanced in vision at the time of his great battle for enlightenment could have failed at that moment with him then becoming a great demonic like lord abusing 3rd eye vision. The same goes for Jesus who could have failed in the garden or even on the cross right at the end, thus becoming the next great satanic like lord abusing 3rd eye vision... the same potential for horrific failure along with being turned has had to be overcome by all the great mystics, saints, sages, masters, buddhas, gurus, and regular Joe's and Jane's at some point... otherwise such a test would not be real with real consequences!

Spotless, I use the term "mind" to more or less cover/include everything up to and including the One, - thus right up to the non-manifest - with such being beyond the naming/mind - or call it the Tao if you will. As for those screwing around with black arts, yes they would be utter fools to go up against the potentially blinding, irresistible, concentrated - white light torch of revealing and piercing vision that Jesus has.

Hi Manitou. Nice comment although I would use the words temporary along with changeable for form instead of illusory, which to me is another one of those often beat up words like empty, and nothing. For if something within the One is inherently illusory then by inference, connection and association so is the nature of The One and the nature of unchanging Tao that gave it birth.

the song that made the universe of galaxies and various energies also made human beings, granted certain specializations and some independent aspects and possibilities are in effect for humans but bottom line separation is not.

ultimately (and obviously) we are connected in the world, from the most subtle Source that can't be pinned down to the most thick as a brick element a molecule of water is not alone in an ocean of water, also the nature of water will continue on while a particular stone only lasts so long in a river.

Steve's posts are good example of balanced reasoning. (among their other aspects) Whereas for you Karl, you can not be reached with balanced reasoning when it comes to certain subjects - for instance through an agnostic like sense or way in relating to same - so even though you harp about the ultimate place that reason and intellect hold for you, it is often reflected here that you often don't practice the application of same without bias? Hmm, I guess we could call your variation Voodoo reasoning - not unlike the idea of or forms of "Vodoo economics" which the world is largely running on.

new age correlations and co-optings...take it with lots of grains of salt... btw maybe this should be in the esoteric forum instead of in the Hindu one

Who would prostrate before or to spiritual authority? It's common in eastern countries but very uncommon in westernized countries - although I imagine such is still done in Roman Catholic Church's in America. Can you name or give examples you have seen or participated in?

Bud, What I'm getting at indirectly by saying, "what humans?" is that we are Spirits having human experiences, not the other way around - even if it seems so or if we try to insist upon such via limited experience... not unlike how our self-blinded buddy Karl is insisting upon and fanatically trying to sell his reality that we are only humans having only human based sensory experiences, and when time runs out for that aspect and format then the game is over.

wow, an often rhetorical-ist saying I'm rhetorical, now that takes the cake.

Manitou, that brings to mind rolling around on the ground which is something a lot of creatures do for its healing effect.

is that why you are here Karl for the sake of argument? Take that away then what are you, "less than an animal" or should I say even a bleating goat ?

Karl, Your attempted shrink show goes on... and some have kindly and helpfully (and or critically and not so kindly) pointed out your particular forms of delusion to you which you refuse to even imagine seeing - yet you are welcome to beat your head against the wall mistaking such for reason and insight but a problem is that you're repeatedly splashing blood and grey matter all over the place through such beatings which is at least unseemly - and which any truly reasonable person would have seen by now !

Karl, Why do you bring your shrink show here, you wouldn't want to force it on anyone would you? Are you feeling compassion for all of us that reason has passed by and trying to help us out of our delusions? It's somewhat strange to some of us that you are so inexperienced in regards to the general context and content of this site (although you do make half-baked presumptions about same while looking from the outside-in via your failed explorations related to same) but that is the wonder of a "Karl" isn't it... What is beyond "death" is Spirit that was never born and will never die... obviously mind can not wrap mind around that fact except perhaps in concepts, and granted concepts and or subjective experiences mentioned by another will never be enough proof for oneself - yet that does not mean for one to fanatically throw the baby out with the bath water as you have so willingly demonstrated as being your pre-emptive method when it comes to that which you refuse to be open to. Still, go in peace and find your flock, thus "live and let live"... for it is at least futile (among other things) to try and ruffle the feathers of birds that don't flock together.

What humans? (...as if they were somehow an independent thinker or mind) Bud, why do you insist on having your human and eating it to?

humans? did nothing to eject themselves from the Garden of Eden, it was all part of "God's plan". .

Well a hierarchy of non-illusion and illusion presents some complications and or tricks (as I've been beating around the bush about)... including the ideas of the non-manifest and manifest or even a state between the cusps of same...(depending on perspective) There is also the idea of God/Siva and Goddess/Shakti and those that embrace the Goddess/Mother would not call her an illusion whereas some of our Buddhist folks might even after the historic Buddha made the key point of recognizing the Truth of the Earth/Goddess as His witness at or near the moment of his battle for enlightenment...

Karl, Sounds like you are out to lunch on the point Manitou was trying to comment on?

hmm, interesting idea of "apparently necessary illusions"... so why would or how could the non-illusionary indulge in the illusionary as it sounds like you saying? (btw, many here profoundly state and claim there is a dichotomy between same) Also how would or could the true Self morph itself into an illusion if it is no such thing, along with the implied fact that an untrue self does not have a power equal to morphing non-illusion into illusion. (for if it did we would really be in a fix wouldn't we?)

"I'd like to try the eternity trip someday but I just don't have the time for it right now" An old friend of mine once spoke the lines above during a conversation we were having - and right after he said it we both cracked up Anyway, the "eternity trip" in whatever form it may take can be like a trickster, and the trick is on us if we can't laugh sometimes about all the serious self-importance that we may build around ourselves and our trips related to same...and how some of us might think that when we finally put all the pieces together (per said trips) that we will then get the prize.

...so if you meet a "spiritual" teacher and they lay a big trip on you at the get go be cautious, for all a real spiritual teacher needs to do (and can't help from doing so) from the get-go is to lay an eternity of the moment in being-ness on you for as long as you can bear it...made possible through the power of unconditional love.

An excellent post Manitou, Thank you for sharing your experience and your personal work on it. I would add that certain ideas about illusion can be tricky... for where does illusion really begin and end; does it begin with a connection to non-illusion? - For example if non-illusion is an ocean of pure, undifferentiated - "all is one" energy/consciousness - then how could such be in any way connected to illusion? (per or as alluded to with "Tao gave birth to the One" then the One to the Three and so forth on to the Ten thousand) In other words if we use terms like the 7th chakra how could such be connected to a lesser illusion of the 6th chakra? Or if we used the term "7th liberation" how could such be connected to a lesser illusion of the 6th liberation? And in further addition for our Buddhist folks, why would an already "Supremely" enlightened historic Buddha bother to go all the way back to the first through fourth Jhana's of illusion during His final moments of life (thus reinforcing such as part of his teachings) if he was already at the "beyond of the beyond" or past the 8th liberation? I'm just throwing this out there for people to consider if they want to

Bud, I'd say that's all a delusion about delusions... for there is no where or time (which you mis-label as delusion) that "God" is not now, including "now" - per seeing and knowing the whole kit and caboodle