3bob

charlatans prey in many ways, including those that speak of scientific proof of "death" (as one type of energy transition) as if it is a final proof of something when any true scientist knows that many such proofs are evolving with newly discovered and greater dimensions to them that supersede the old limits of just one or two dimensions.

Karl, It sounds like you are presenting your view as a universal truism thus the onus is on you, I'm presenting an agnostic like view which is not putting forth a supposed truism based on limited evidence one way or the other.

In the end some say nothing is gained or lost, if so then why the all the nearly endless rigmarole to begin with?

some of you guys have not been reading the Tao Teh Ching...

certain proofs or certain evidence can not be had either way thus it is unreasonable to insist either way

Karl, most all of us have tails - in effect - namely dualistically operating minds

How illogical of you Karl, you know you can not prove such thus it unreasonable to insist on such.

Nope, one has to return much further than that, keep going.

Karl. when will one ever catch their own tail?

Nik, I hear what you are saying as relative gain in relation to relative realms. Thanks for the feedback.

Karl, Is that so? I'd say the first and the last comer (aka the universe) do have a beginning (and end) in form - one just has to return to the formless to know of such.

by the way below is a perfectly logical and fully reasoned summation on the matter... "There is a beginning. There is no beginning of that beginning. There is no beginning of that no beginning of beginning. There is something. There is nothing. There is something before the beginning of something and nothing, and something before that. Suddenly there is something and nothing. But between something and nothing, I still don't really know which is something and which is nothing. Now, I've just said something, but I don't really know whether I've said anything or not."

Karl, don't tell that to the first and the last comer...

to stick my nose in I'd say there are worse things than death, knowing that death of the body is not the end of the road as many believe it to be nor always of some kind of final "peace".

the final outcome is before the beginning...

Steve, that is a good point about obvious corruption compared to subtle corruption with some parallels to the saying of, "keep your friends close and enemies closer".

Brian, that is a good alternate take that I was not considering when creating this string, which was more along the lines of states of being and consciousness, thus in the end a simple crystal to the mightiest God neither gain nor lose anything which makes a difference to the final outcome....per what such a saying alludes to.

I understand your point Steve but don't fully agree with it since such could also be said of a whole lot of SPIRITUAL or philosophical text from most all traditions, yet people don't just abandon such because of a few bad apples or power plays related to same; thus counter to certain teachings given out of context when it comes to "discrimination" we do need to have some ability to discriminate in certain cases, aka "stand for nothing and fall for everything". Freedom of press is abused but at least there is some chance in most westernized countries to contest the facts without being taken out back and shot dead at the drop of a hat or for a wrong sentence. (with North Korea and radical Islam as probably being the worst examples of such)

...they say that pyramids, even after being ransacked thousands of years ago, may still have some undiscovered secret chambers... btw, it doesn't seem like the wine hidden down there would be in very good condition after so long thus bring some pure mountain spring water along to add to said wine the next time you go exploring such ancient sites... or if you are some kind of master just turn the water into wine as the need arises

I remember some of the mis-led hippies of the 60's and early 70's walking around saying, "better red than dead" glossing over well known facts by that time that many millions of people were executed out of hand or via concentration camps under communist Russia and China !! And such people didn't consider themselves ignorant while getting all sorts of BA's BS's and masters degrees in the safety of American campus somewhere without worry of execution. (although we did have Kent state and some other horrible campus incidents back then, but such did not cost millions of lives on US soil - then again our well educated government people back then thought they could bulldoze and bomb their way through Vietnam which cost around a half million+ lives altogether including around 60k of American boys) What a lovely world that has continued on from then (?) no wonder there are so many brilliant cynics walking around.

Dreambliss, -(a variation) it's true that such may help protect the state of your mind and heart but there is also the fact that at any time anyone can come along and save your physical life without an once of hesitation or reasoning for their own safety (and made easier with your co-operation) for such is the way of human and angelic influences in this world - just look around at how such is being done with little kids!

Nice idea Spotless, but like I said it is almost impossible to fine privacy in a peaceful, moderate and bountiful forest like the Buddhas of the past once did while not having a penny to your name and still be able to live off nature.... since there is very, very little left of such hospitable places free from fences, rules and government or owner control. (nor can most become simple non-famous monks and make a living by begging like many of the historic holy people once did since begging is looked down upon and or is not going to work well enough by itself to keep one's body alive and healthy in much of the world) Granted, one can still find the quiet spaces internally through withdrawal from the world in the privacy of their own home or apartment located somewhere in a city or suburb - depending on certain factors and if they are "sly" enough to pull it off.

it's the only game in town, not playing is still playing but with fewer options...

Dreambliss, You are a dreamer if you think those ideas will protect your human life from violence; it's true that such may help protect the state of your mind and heart but there is also the fact that at any time anyone can come along and end your physical life without an once of hesitation or reason (and made easier without self-defense) for such is the way of sub-human and demonic influences in this world - just look around at how such is even being done to little kids! (although karma would have to be involved somehow??) so there's nothing wrong with the idea of protecting your mind and heart just don't be surprised if you get knocked off - Gandhi and Jesus weren't. (a few examples out of thousands)

Obviously all beings have to work and struggle in one way or another... which is a universal given for all forms of beings. So it is not work and struggle per-se that is a problem (far from it) but the motives related to same that can and do arise. For instance the struggle to survive with elemental or natural types of forces that are fair and impartial to all beings is not something any sane being could or should harp about... it's when certain forces manipulate the hell out of things for their own benefit at the expense of others that bring us into war like conditions. Also thinking that we can just turn off the radio or TV and forget about certain forces will only keep them "out of mind" until the day they are knocking on our door and then blowing the hell out our private lives. (for "the barbarians are at the gate", a.k.a. certain forces and or crap, and can only be held back through eternal vigilance along with dharmic workings)