3bob

and one might ask if that which is connected to the absolute is never disconnected (and can never be disconnected) how long will it exist...?

I see your point Steve although one could say the historic Buddha gave the first Noble Truth as a truism and in that context if such was turned on its head we would then have the truism of enlightenment. Btw, does Dzogchen supersede the teachings of the historic Buddha on Nirvana?

I'll take the liberty to say that the "First Noble Truth" turned on its head is enlightenment... (being that many here have a Buddhist terminology bias)

I'd say Yes, with joy probably being the better term in that "bliss" can have the connotation of being "blissed out" like on some kind of induced high via whatever drugs or passing energies. eternal unbind-able Freedom is Joy without it's counterpart of a sorrowful rebinding or re-bound. (that takes place in the many worlds of duality)

...we could modify the question to, "is spirit relentlessly seeking itself out?" (for why else to "go far" and "return" yet never leave?)

a modest group shrink is fine with me, as in "us"

I wouldn't say that although it would obviously be a baseline for the person who wrote it and those that dig it.

some common sense Zen: "before enlightenment chop wood and carry water, after enlightenment chop wood and carry water" btw, a little spin off of the above that I came across, "don't chop water when you should carry wood"

I don't hear the heavy duty parts of that quoted material (which is not unlike so much I've read in other forms or in other teachings) as being very practical or applicable for many of us who are mostly in the trench's... In other words it's all fine and dandy for a detached master to speak from an enlightened soapbox using mostly abstract ramblings related to the non-dualistic transcendent that already is, etc.. , but lets face it many of us are fighting and struggling in the trench's, thus matters on how to deal with trench warfare (so to speak) are more practical and applicable for many of us - for instance: how about nitty- gritty instructions and examples on how to take the correct, non-abstracted steps that make up a ten thousand mile journey since such a journey is not one step of ten-thousand miles. (even if ten-thousand mile glances ahead are sometimes possible that still doesn't mean our feet have walked that walk and is where we now stand!)

Prana (or life force) Copied From the Atharva Veda., XI, 4. 1. Praise to the Breath of Life! He rules this world, master of all things, on which all things are based. 2. Praise, Breath of Life, to your uproar! Praise to your thunder! Praise to your lightning! Praise, Breath of Life, for your rain! 3. When Breath of Life with his thunder roars o'er the plants, then, pregnant with pollen, the flowers burst forth in abundance. 4. When Breath of Life in due season roars o'er the plants, all things on earth rejoice with great rejoicing. 5. When Breath of Life the broad earth with rain bedews, the cattle exult: "We shall have plenty," they say. 6. The plants converse with this Breath, drenched by his moisture: "Our life is prolonged, for you have made us all fragrant." 7. Praise to you, Breath, when you come and praise when you go! When you stand up and when you sit still, to you praise! 8. Praise to you, Breath of Life, breathing both in and out! To your turning this side and that, to the whole of you, praise! 9. Grant us, O Breath, your dear form and the one dearer still that we may live! Give us your healing power! 10. Breath of Life clothes all beings with care as a father his son; master of all things, whether they breathe or breathe not. 11. Breath of Life is death, is fever, revered by the Gods. In the highest world he sets the man who speaks truth. 12. Breath of Life is Queen, is Guide, revered by all things; he is sun, he is moon; he is also the Father of all. 13. The two breaths are rice and barley, Breath the ox that pulls. In barley resides i inbreath; out-breath is called rice. 14. A man breathes in, he breathes out, within the womb. Quickened by you, to birth he comes once more. 15. The mighty Wind they call him, or Breeze. The future and the past exist in him. On Breath of Life all things are based. 16. When you, Breath of Life, quicken them, then the plants of the Atharvans and Angirases, of Gods and of Men, come to birth. 17. When Breath has poured down with the rain upon the vast earth, then plants come forth and herbs of every sort. 18. The one who knows you thus, O Breath, and that which forms your support, to him will all offer tribute in yonder highest heaven. 19. Just as all creatures owe tribute to you, Breath of Life, so may they bring it to the one who hears you, O renowned! 20. He moves among the Gods, an inner seed; becomes, is, is reborn. He has entered the son he, the father, who was, is, and shall be! 21. If the sunbird, rising, extracted his foot from the sea, neither today nor tomorrow would exist, neither night, day, nor dawn. 22. The eight--wheeled moves on one rim, to and fro, thousand-syllabled. With one half it engendered all creation. Of its other half what sign? 23. Of all that is born is he Lord, of all that moves. Of swift bow like the rest, to you, O Breath of Life, homage! 24. Of all that is born is he Lord, of all that moves. Untiring he, steadfast; may my prayer bring Breath to my aid! 25. Erect he keeps watch among the sleeping. he falls not prone. None ever heard that he among the sleepers should slumber. 26. Breath of Life, do not forsake me. You are, indeed, I. Like the Embryo of the Waters I bind you to me that I may live!" end

any speculation or attempted definitions on Sanatana Dharma (aka Hinduism) are also more or less "provisional" and or "neti, neti". Btw, Taoism points to an unchanging "core"/ "Mystery" many times in the T.T.C., thus and per written teaching one could say it is far different from most of Buddhism or at least the way we often hear Buddhism being talked about...

wow lots of Bible quotes! light can be bright or light can be dark, but that inside the light is greater than both

I also suggest reading the Chandogya Upanishad for a better idea of what the Vedic teachings are pointing to regarding Self... A secret is that the Self knows the Self - without doubts or abstract convolutions and mental gymnastics. Good fortune to you

Btw, the saying, "the Pure in heart shall see God" means those having zero resistance to that seeing - which would not be possible otherwise and is based on spiritual "laws".

speaking of sin an analogy that could be used to some degree would be with a simple electrical formula, for instance: power = current x voltage or P=IE with the analogy of: "God" = unlimited spiritual current times unlimited spiritual potential but a catch that comes into play with the formulas above would include resistance in ohms or resistance to God in sin- thus and only when there is zero resistance to "God" can an unlimited spiritual potential and flow take place resulting in Love/work being done. Further, such is why all the talk (and certain methods) of wanting to or trying to force enlightenment can be dangerous to a certain extant being that with this analogy one can see that a premature approach or contact (with whatever included subtle or not so subtle degree of resistance) to an unlimited voltage and current will result with either a blown fuse or tripped circuit breaker and maybe some seriously burned up wiring if resistance is not instantaneously removed or a direct contact is not backed off of !

for every Jesus said this context, there is also a Jesus said that context.... Btw, without sin how could anyone learn non-sin...? I'd also say or believe that no spiritual master would take back such hard lessons that ended up with their learning.

nope, the op with the loose antlers

not all bad but you need to see a shrink...

sooner or later death reaches all beings except the Supreme Being... the interesting deal is that such deathlessness is already in us, the truest identity.

Jetsun, I can dig your drift although I would say that certain conditions do have to met which granted may not yet could have time related factors, for instance the historic Buddha mentions his countless incarnations (with related time factors) yet he also talks about a timeless realization to end all sorrow... yet did he rail against his incarnations and put down his journey to detachment? Me thinks not.

going from a chipmunk to a bull moose would take some evolutionary practice and lots of pine nuts for anyone to pull off - sorry I could have resisted but didn't. destroying concepts sounds so heavy handed, rather just set them down. Btw the historic Buddha did not destroy his physical body although he almost did as an ascetic before he realized that such was counter-productive.

Mr. N. said, "practice is not necessary" yet how much did you practice to reach that half baked, whatever in the hell conclusion?

then again S.W. I think part of what you are saying is problematic in the sense of or if someone said in a similar way, "either samsara is illusion or it is not", yet there is also the saying along the lines of, "samsara properly understood is nirvana"... Btw, I agree with your idea that dropping the raft half way across the river is counter-productive Another point we might ponder or that I will bring up is that there is no disconnect between pre and first jhana and then further between 2nd, 3rd, etc.. going all the way to nirvana (if using such an analogy - which happens to be used in Buddhist sutra) thus one might ask where is the absolute or definitive demarcation between truth and non-truth if there is no true disconnect to be found in the whole ball of wax?

"Most likely you are under the impression that the teachings are of some worth as statements of truth. They are not!" by Mr. N. apparently you believe your statement above is true being that it is given as a truism... but I hear it as a histrionic blanket type of statement that is counter to the Buddhist teaching of the Noble Eight Fold Path which would be included under such a blanket (among many others) , but I'll defer to the Buddhists here to go into further detail for you if it needed?

wow, your summations are refuted over and over again but don't take it personally. (for such refutations are heard in the teachings of all sorts of "Self"-realized beings and not just scholars - btw it sounds like you happen to lean towards Buddhism while at the same time pooping on it ?) Also you are not the first Tom, Dick, Harry, Mary or Sue to harp about the transcendent and shoot your self in the foot while doing so - being that many of us here have also done so -