ShaktiMama

I didn't say that nor either did he. Not everybody thinks like you say they do. The fact that you insist on your views as an absolute brings in questions about your own mental stability. The self actualized person, which I am becoming to think thru this thread, may be at a place of higher attainment than the enlightened person. Not that it matters to anyone except to couchitarians. (People who sit on the couch and theorize about enlightment.) I am not enlightened nor are you. I may be in the process but as we have pointed out on this forum before an enlightened person will not draw attention to the attainment of their enlightenment. And the definition still stands for psych instability. Just because you say it is an unenlightened standpoint doesnt mean it is not. All mental instability has a quality of spiritual unrest. That is not a new discovery.

Just my own opinion: spoken like an unenlightened man.... i find offensive what you write as I have noticed other female members of this group do too...you have not a clue that you are being offensive. Doesn't seem you have the self awareness to notice that women are finding how you talk about women offensive. your view, imo, is self limiting. women, sex, family can bring you into the realm of enlightenment very very quickly or one can become bitter and resentful and prolong the journey... that which one finds stressful and limiting can become a tool of inner cultivation. Now that takes discipline and commitment. asceticism/ austerities is just one practice to the end of the journey....it is not the only practice. self denial as spiritual journey places the blame/responsibility on the adherent's failure to reach spiritual achievement on externals (my wife, my kids, my job, sexing, etc. etc. ect.) and not what is held in the heart of contemplation. This is a strong "ego" based practice. In other words, what the ascetic says is, the quality of my enlightenment is dependent on how much control my environment/attachments have on me. If I cant control or make peace with my environment and its inhabitants I will never make high spiritual attainment. I.E. I can't be spiritual because my environment/family/relationships get in the way. oh poor me....i am so weak.... I can understand taking a spiritual break but if it is taking a lifetime to achieve...get a new teacher or get a new path. "spiritual" teachers sell enlightenment but tell you it might take 30 years for you to achieve it. so over the years, little by little, teachers sell the promise of enlightenment. It is Enlightenment on the installment plan. It is also called "following the rice bowl." I have no problems with people charging for their time as teachers. But just because someone claims to be spiritual doesnt mean they are qualified to teach. Claiming you have the only answer and you are charging people for the answer...not good in my eyes. But that is my personal opinion.

Personally, I have said for years that enlightenment is a cultural myth. Am I right? Don't know. I work with a lot of n00bs on the path. I have to start with the basics to start them questioning conventional wisdom.

nice... wish there were more men out there who had this mature view of practice. we can use our circumstances to transcend and transform our practice. or we can blame women and children for our own failings. "The woman! She made me eat of the Apple." Adam complaing to God that the woman was responsible for his screw up. lol the priesthood, Daoist, buddhist, Christian, whatevah, have been blaming the woman for their failures since the priest hood was invented. Oh, and women are energy vampires too I have heard tell in the whispering of temple courtyards. I heard that from the High Lama who has 30 nuns to practice sexual tantra. Sex and women are best left to the really spiritual people to handle. Maybe the way to higher practice is to love your woman and child so much it transforms your heart and life.

double post

Excellent point. "The god of the cannibals will be a cannibal, of the crusaders a crusader, and of the merchants a merchant." Ralph Waldo Emerson

hee hee..... enlightenment is another award or badge for most people to obtain so they don't have to behave in an enlightened manner. (whatever that is) There actually are psychological hierarchies of growth and awakening theories. We use these scales/standards to measure mental health. we studied them to death in nursing school. If we follow the awakening of the chakras from the base to the crown it can roughly follow Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Other theories of growth and development do mirror this chakra model of development. If you haven't read Eastern Body Western Mind by Anodea Judith I would check it out. She did take many models of psych development and tried to map them over the chakra model. It is a good book to start with.

yes, people who follow a long educational path like an MD or PhD are often socially incapable of functioning in a mature way. One of my friends thought he had it all figured it out. So he quit his job and went to sit on his couch and let "the Universe" take care of him. He was almost evicted while he waited to for this to happen. He's a smart guy who learned quickly that he has to take care of himself first and went out and got his job back. He is doing quite well today. s

i think your understandings and realization are yours but they are not mine. I think generalizing this to mean for everyone is a bit premature. it's like you are talking that subjective truth is the only truth or at least the only truth that matters. I could be misunderstanding you here and if I am I apologize.

Here we will have to agree to disagree. Qi and jing are very biological. One can see and feel the effects it has on our meat body. I never said it was our own strength that accomplished enlightenment. I think the personality can be a hindrance. I think when the body gets involved in the enlightenment process, for example, using shaking to remove blocks and build chi, it quickly gets out of the control of the human intellect and becomes more biological, spontaneous, natural and the intellect becomes subservient to the body and the energy. Or it should because advancement in practice will be much quicker. i think enlightenment can be mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual. It can be happening in all the bodies at the same time or just one of the bodies and not the others. It be happening at all different speeds with vary qualities of effectiveness.

i suppose there is a difference between child like and childish...I know which quality of those two I would like a teacher to have.

yes...lord willing and the creek don't rise.

the ego was a term coined by Sigmund Freud. There is no scientific proof for the ego but we all talk about it like it is proved and a done deal. http://www.buddhanet.net/oxherd1.htm this to me is a better story of what we are talking about.

so it can't be known intellectually is what you are saying...true? so then it can be felt if not known? Can I experience the tao but I have not a shred of an idea how I can tell you about it? define immaturity.... what do you base that on?

that is maslow's definition of psychological maturity. I find it very good. I think spiritually enlightened people do care. Everyone wants to be loved.In fact, according to Maslow, if our love and security needs are not met it is impossible to attain self actualization or what the East might categorizes as enlightenment. no I am referring to psychological maturity which, according to Maslow, 1% of the population are. That is far different than stable. I know what the medical definition of psych stable would entail. "Not a danger to self and others." that leaves a lot of room for crazy and instability.

I call BS on your BS comment. Please explain. s

I will get back to it later. I have so much work to do today but it...in a nutshell for me...is an overwhelming feeling of gratitude for the life I live, my people, my environment, my world. I see a beautiful, shining wonder in every little thing. Guru Mayi used to say something like this, "the light of scintillating Consciousness is present in everything, every particle." I must say some of the Eastern terms I have read that describe enlightenment and such are terrifically incomprehensible to me. s

when I used to teach with Dr. Glenn Morris, he had a saying, "Enlightenment is a biological process." He was referring to the kundalini in this process. I find that enlightenment is a term, just imho, is difficult for westerners to grok with terms from eastern minds. I find pointing people to studies and thinkers in western philosophy and psychology helps us get more of a grip on the subject. It also helps to explain to explain incongruities in eastern gurus in their public and private lives. s

"The nothingness of the center creates the somethingness of the doughnut."- Scott Livengood

My apologies but I don't think I have ever read a thread started by you. The attack and diminishment you feel is in your own mind. I work 40+ hours a week as a case manager, am an interfaith minister of a global church where I actively teach, broadcast programs, lead meditations and hold healing sessions; run a busy seminar and retreat business, run a global support network for kundalini survivors. I am a counselor and adviser to advanced practitioners on the spiritual path. I DONT have time to attack people. It's a waste of my chi and time. I must use my time and chi in a most efficient manner or my schedule will kill me. Being evil and mean is such an inefficient waste of chi. Being in gratitude and being of service raises one's spiritual energy immediately. It's an obvious choice for me. Be of peace. s I just wanted to add a partial CV so you don't think I am making it up. Non of the websites are up to date. Way to busy to do so. http://www.kundaliniawakening.com/who-we-are.html

ahhh...the structure makes it a donut....

so i know how to make vegan, baked, non fat, no sugar, gluten free donuts. Interested? When is a donut not a donut? and it turned out pretty tasty if i must say but it takes a little adaptation in desire to appreciate. s

when people drop the need for having or wanting a measuring stick that is a significant effect indeed.

so true. today, so busy busy busy, I will post Maslow's characteristics of a self actualized (enlightened?) person sometime later for an alternative perspective. I find describing or fully knowing the qualities is like nailing jello to the wall. A bit difficult. It might be easier to describe what is not than what is so. Kinda like describing the Tao.