Sundragon

Fiveelementtao: Fiveelementtao, thanks for the heads up about the use of mantra with Celestial Qigong. What I had noticed was that after doing the movements for a time I am much more able to settle into meditation as my mind is already focused, relaxed and clear. After my japa (1/2hr) I switch to centering prayer (1/2 hr) in which I sit in the presence of my Ishta Devata letting go of all attachments to my achievements, my desires, my aversions, my needs, and my ego-self, attuning to the One Life which is my Goddess, the Tao, the Self, and the Awareness beyond all categories and ideas. I like Celestial Neigong's perspective which is that all that seems to exist outside one's self is a reflection of one's inner reality. Very hermetic actually with the microcosm reflecting the macrocosm..."as above so below." This is very much in tune with my sense of spiritual reality. The fundamental unity of Being/Non-Being speaks to me. The acknowledgement of that may seem a small thing, but in truth it matters as the underlying philosophy of a system can strongly color the results obtained from that system. I attribute my current use of Celestial Neigong on my switch to japa yoga and bhakti type practice. I have greater enthusiasm, motivation, follow through and joy in my practice. I also find that I am getting "called" to practices that I may not have initially gravitated toward. I have learned over the years to listen closely, with discernment, to the call of my Inner Master, who speaks nut just through inner promptings ie. intuition but by synchronicities that draw what I need into my awareness. Celestial Neigong Lvl 1 is very easy to learn and, to my great joy, can be learned via the DVD. It's great. Also, there is a focus on one's natural posture and stance. The philosophy is that one's body, in its natural state, is an ideal vehicle for the energy of Heaven. This is a big help to me as it allows me to focus on the movements and less on my knees or how widely my feet are spaced. Sometimes the seemingly small considerations make quite a difference. Sundragon

I think that the very idea that life is an "accident" or the byproduct of blind forces is nothing more than philosophical materialism. Ultimately we will likely never "know" in the way science seeks to know why life exists. We will all interpret the evidence in accordance with our own biases. My bias is toward the co-creative idea. I'm not averse to considering the possibility of interventionism but then we, in regards to the origins of life in general, have an infinite regress to the creators of the creators of the creators and so on and so on. No matter where life began, no matter on what world or galaxy I believe that it was the co-creative will of Spirit that life manifest as the Universe seeking to know Itself. The One gives birth to another so that it can see itself. It's an old principle.

I'd prefer if killing were never necessary, but that's an ideal that simply does not exist so long as there are those that will only cease violence when violence is committed upon them. I am for killing only as a last resort. I'm all for punishment if punishment is an option. I believe the path of the honorable warrior, the warrior who defends the innocent, is a noble path. So long as there are those who would prey on their fellow man we will need those who are willing to do violence upon those who understand no other language but violence. To fail to do violence upon those who respond to nothing else is to condemn others to harm or death. Compassion demands we do as little harm as possible. If killing one murderer prevents the death of many it is certainly the right choice.

I think that killing can be done without hatred. Sometimes the good and compassionate thing is to kill those who, for whatever reason, will not cease in their violence. To allow predatory humans to make prey of their fellows is to show a distinct lack of compassion for those whom these predators will victimize. I don't think nonviolence is an absolute moral standard that must be adhered to at all costs. Like all moral realities it must be contextualized so that it doesn't become simplistic and ultimately useless. Love is not weak. Even to forgive doesn't imply that one allows the forgiven to continue to commit harmful acts. Forgiveness simply removes the emotional charge from the past. One can forgive another and still find it necessary to kill if that other refuses to cease their violence. One can kill without hatred. The loving thing isn't always the warm and fuzzy thing. <--- Not a Buddhist by the way, so YMMV.

Here's what I have experiencially sensed and have intuited regarding the Self. The Self exists as a relative reality the way that our physical body does, and all of our other bodies (astral, causal, mental, spiritual, etc.) exist. I see the Self, sometimes called the Higher Self as an oversoul and as a personal deity. This Higher Self is, from our perspective, God(dess), Christ, Buddha, Atman, Krishna, etc. and both can and often does appear to individuals as figures of religious significance for those of a religious temperment. Bhakti yoga is effective because it allows one to personify the Self in a manner that allows one to feel deep devotion. Does that mean that the gods, buddhas, neteru, etc. aren't real...no. They're "real" from a certain perspective of consciousness and act as wayshowers to the Self that lies beyond all form. This Self is only relatively real and only exists from levels of consciousness and awareness equivalent to or "lower" than itself (though it is infinitely more "real" than the ego-consciousness of the personality) From a "higher" vantage point (the Self's Higher Self so to speak), it too is unreal (as we are from levels of awareness higher than our own) and so on and so on as Self-realization ever-increases within endless planes of Being. Ultimately this Self is all of this, is indivisable from All That Is and can be said not to exist, in the Buddhist fashion, because its more a process of ever-expanding awareness than it is a singular Being to be grasped and understood. This is my tentative understanding through study and experience. However I know that I have it wrong to one degree or another just as I am certain that everyone (including the great saints, sages, avatars, and gurus) else has it wrong insofar as their understanding of the Self or No-Self is based on their perspective. Sundragon

I don't think it lacking in compassion to call BS on this argument. I think that to do otherwise is to enable the continuation of error. Relationships of all kinds whether romantic, familial, friendships, co-workers, etc. are the crucible by which we have the opportunity to see how far along we are. Relationships provide a mirror into who we truly are. Our actions and reactions to those close to us will show us how loving, compassionate, understanding, accepting and wise we really are. In other words these relationships will show us just how far our cultivation has actually progressed. It is easy to be "spiritual" and lofty in a monastary or a mountaintop. The rubber meets the road when you have to interact with people who don't do a total of 2-3hrs of inner work a day. That's the test. Usually we find out quickly just how much "cultivation" we have yet to do. Right now I am single, I have a son, but I have no romantic involvements. I choose not to because I have a limited amount of time and I dedicate much of that time to spiritual pursuits. I have had many minor romantic involvements and several long-term relationships but I find that now I prefer the autonomy of the single life. Outside of the ample time I give my son (happily I might add) I don't want to be bothered with the needs of someone else at this time. I am single because I know just how much energy is involved in maintaining a healthy romantic relationship. I learned more about myself within 2yrs of having a child than the prior 10yrs of inner work that came before. Being a good parent demands that you come to know both your strengths and your weaknesses of character in a way that I have yet to see manifest in any other arena of human endeavor...I would guess marriage would be similar. Of course there are toxic relationships and there is bad parenting and neither of these things is conducive to "cultivation" but I assume that most of us on this forum are self-aware enough to be able to cultivate our spirituality within the context of human relationships. If I might add...Your life is your spirituality. The Tao, God, Goddess, Being, It, The Absolute, Awareness, etc. is your entire reality. How you interact with aspects of your reality ie. those with whom you are in relationship, is how you are interacting with that the Big Unknown/Unknowable in the present moment. Your spiritual practice, your cultivation is how you live...it is your eating, your drinking, your breathing, your bathing, your speaking, your sleeping, your EVERYTHING. If something, anything, is able to take this realization from you then you can use that as a marker to tell you where you are somehow separating your cultivation/spiritual life from everything else. If it isn't all cultivation/the spiritual life, then you're doing something wrong. Sundragon

I begin by creating a sacred space through a movement called the Rending of Space taught to me by one of my teachers who leared it from a Yaqui Indian Shaman I believe. Then I offer incense and prayers to Isis and offer up the practice as an act of worship to the Great Mother as part of my bhakti practice. That sets the tone. When I am finished with the Neigong I settle in for meditation and begin the mantra which is one that came to me in meditation "Isis Soteira" (greek for Isis the Savior)and proceed from there. I realize that this isn't a traditional japa mantra but after 25yrs of spiritual practice I have learned to quite clearly receive the insights I need from within. That subtle shift in perspective, from taking qi that exists externally and using it to instead focus on the divine potential within, is IMO quite important. Sundragon

Only because 5ET mentioned it and I thought I new thread for a discussion of Celestial Neigong and specific comments and questions regarding the system could be useful. This thread has a bit of side discussion that IMO can lead to massive thread derailment. Sundragon

Fiveelementtao, thanks for the heads up about the use of mantra with Celestial Qigong. ... I'm going to start a thread specific to Celestial Neigong and save my comments for that thread. Sundragon

I bought the Celestial Neigong Level 1 DVD and am very, very impressed. I am a Qigong/Neigong "newby" I have done some Qigong but didn't stick with it because I always got side tracked. It'll take me a little while to master the deceptively simple forms taught on this DVD but I have to say that even my clumsy initial attempts from the first day yielded powerful energetic results. I could feel the energy building as I did the exercises, the veins in my forearms and hands opened up like they do when I do weight training. The energy/heat coming from my hands was palpable. Even after grounding the energy my mood was elevated and I felt more aware and alert. This is after only about 15-20mins of practice. I have been looking for a form of energy work that focused on spiritual awakening and this seems to be what I have been looking for. This is a form of Qigong I will continue to practice. I'll just add it to my daily practice before daily practice of Japa meditation and Centering Prayer. Heck, I'll even dedicate the practice as a form of bhakti yoga to the goddess Isis who is my Ishta Devata (no I'm not Hindu, but the concept is the same no matter the faith/tradition). I know I'll be ordering DVD2 soon (likely next payday) even if I will be using DVD1's basic primary techniques for quite some time to come before expanding my practice. Sincerely, Sundragon aka Christopher

Hello, I have been meditating off and on for years, more on than off, and have gotten good results by simply sitting at my computer chair, loveseat, couch, etc. with my back relatively straight. I am able to relax at will, concentrate for nice, long, extended periods of time and enter some pretty powerful altered states of consciousness. Having said that, I have for some time been practicing Spring Forest QiGong and am working with Glenn Morris' Meditation Mastery program and am trying to do things "by thr book" which admittedly is making me feel like a newby to the whole practice of meditation. I'm fine with having a beginners mind in regards to all this. However, one thing is rather troubling to me....traditional meditation postures. I use the sitting on the edge of a chair, gentitals hanging over the edge of the chair position because my physiolgy doesn't agree with lotus and half-lotus positions. I am somewhat comfortable at first in this position, but I find that just being able to relax and let go into the process of meditation is very difficult. My breathing becomes more shallow (not in the good meditation causes the body to utilize less oxygen kind of way, the my body is stressed kind of way), my diaphram tightens up, I find it difficult to concentrate on anything other than my discomfort which is rooted in a full-body stress reaction. This "stressed out" sensibility can last throughout the whole meditation and sometimes for a few hours afterward. How important is it to have one's back completely (as much as possible) straight during meditation? How important are these postures anyway? My meditations have become worse since I decided to get more traditional in my practice and it is very, very discouraging. I rather miss the qaulity of my old meditation style and wonder if I should continue to "go by the book" and work through my discomfort hoping for a breakthrough or should I go back to my old, more relaxed style. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Sundragon

With apologies to Marblehead with whom I must respectfully disagree. Forgiveness is always beneficial because forgiveness does in no way imply forgetfulness or weakness. Forgiveness takes more inner strength than holding onto the past. Just because one chooses to forgive, in order to heal themselves, that doesn't imply that they are again open to the same hurt. Forgiveness doesn't eradicate the learnings one gains from experience forgiveness simply removes the destructive emotional charge that accompanies the memory of a damaging event. If I am repeatedly punched in the face by an individual when walking on the left side of the road I can forgive the individual who tends to punch me when I walk on the left side of the road while still acting with wisdom by walking on the right side of the roadfrom now on. Forgiveness doesn't erase the wisdom of experience. Forgiveness allows wisdom to flower because it allows the individual to percieve events from a higher perspective...one free of suffering.

If I may add a thought. No, the Tao (or Brahman/Self/Atman) doesn't forgive in the sense of an external being granting pardon. The only forgiveness is from you to you or you to others/another. One can call upon Divine Grace in order to help one have the strength to forgive. One can even ask the Divine (by whatever name) for forgiveness but realize that this is a psychological tool to help one forgive one's self anyway. My understanding of God is that there is no decision to forgive because the Divine is Love and Love forgives out of its very nature. For the Divine to withold forgiveness would be akin to love hating or love desiring to do harm...it is a contradiction as great as a blazing inferno being bitter cold to the touch. The good Dr. is wrong. Forgiveness can and often must take place without any acts of restitution or repentance. The Dr.'s manner of thinking imprisons the victim of injustice creating a co-dependency whereby the victim cannot heal until the perpetrator makes amends. This is extremely destructive and can keep an individual victimized for the rest of his/her life. I have forgiven cruelties done against me by individuals I haven't seen in years and these individuals made no gestures of pennance toward me. I forgave them in order to free myself from the prison of anger, resentment and grief.

Amazing blessing! Right back at you. Love and Peace, Sundragon

Hi, I am an utter beginner at Qigong though not to esoteric practice in general. One of the things I like about the Eastern systems of energy work is that they are self-consistant and have the language to describe both energy work and its effects. This leads me to my troubling situation. I have been feeling rising and diminishing tides of energy for weeks. At first I attributed this to anxiety which used to be an issue for me. Through meditation I no longer suffer from persistant anxiety and for that I am thankful. However within the last few months I have been noticing surges of nervous energy that (this may sound strange) rises with the waxing moon, peaks during the full moon and dimishes quickly as the moon wanes. There is a certain power to the energy and I find that strong spiritual insights frequently arise during the rising stage but the ungrounded energy sometimes causes extreme nervous discomfort that can lead to insomnia, anger and emotional lows (due to frustration on my part). The more inner work I do ie. meditation, ritual, energy work, etc. the more noticable these nervous symptoms become. When I do no inner work whatsoever the sensations dissipate until they are gone entirely and do not return. However lately whenever I do inner work this cycle begins. Does anyone know what type of energy imbalance, movement, purification, transformation, or whatever this may be? Kundalini perhaps? None of my esoteric work has prepared me for this. I am now doing Spring Forest Qigong in the hope that my energy issues would balance themselves out. Any help would be appreciated. Love and Peace, Sundragon

I have had out of body experiences so I am certain we survive physical death...as certain as the living can be. I think that we have "bodies" on different levels of awareness...astral, causal, mental, spiritual, etc. levels (or whatever set of names you choose to use). After death the soul will likely be drawn back to the physical plane in order to inhabit another physical form. This will contiinue until one reaches enlightenment (fully realized connection with the higher self/atman/monad that initially gave "birth" to the soul) at which time the entirety of the entiity with transcend these "lower worlds" and commune with the divine one ever more expanded planes of being. There may be no end to this evolutionary path...that of God ever more realizing itself as God throughout eternity. I have no proof of this but intuitively this seems correct to me. Love and Peace, Sundragon

So true... ...and single ...and deperate for personalized instruction. ...and sexually open. Ah...hot students mmmmmmmmm. (anyone who is offended by this needs to meditate more in order to get over themselves) Love and Peace, Sundragon

Aliens possibly. I am more inclined to think of these things in terms of a powerful, ancient lost civilization of mankind with greater technology, knowledge and awareness along lines of Atlantis, Mu, Lemuria or whatever name would be culturally relevant to the peoples in question. I think the whole alien angle, while possible, diminishes mankinds amazing capacities and gives the achievements of the past over to extra-terrestrials. I believe that many past and modern "alien" encounters are actually visionary, shamanic spiritual experiences that are considered extra-terrestrial because our culture doesn't have the vocabulary of spirit the way many peoples did. "Oh I know spirits aren't real so what I saw must have been aliens." Plus there is the possiblity that many other life forms aren't physical at all. Shamans of different cultures claim encounters with extra-terrestrial life-forms who are essentially spiritual beings themselves. I feel that when folks read about the myths of the past as actual flesh and blood events (which some certainly were though highly colored over time) they fall into the same trap that makes many modern Christians look foolish or ignorant...that of literal interpretation of mytho-poetic/metaphorical or allegorical literature. Huge mistake. Look at the young-earthers or the 6-day creationists...seems nuts huh? It is no more or less nuts than reading the visions of Ezekial, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, the stories of the Nephilim, etc. and seeking flesh and blood aliens instead of a mystical symbolic reality which these stories more than likely represent. Of course anything is possible, but I think that aliens are less likely than mythic/spiritual metaphor and symbol. Love and Peace, Sundragon

No because I am not a cultist. A cult is rooted in the strength of personality of one teacher/prophet/demagogue/master. The cult filters information to its devotees so that they are effectively dependant upon the cult for spiritual sustanence. The cult exists to serve its leader(s) and not the needs of the followers. There are meditation cults, Christian cults, Qigong cults, Qabalistic cults, etc. If there is a spiritual path there is a cult available for those seeking such a thing. What is and what is not a cult has a subjective element as well. Groups in power will often call other sects "cults" simply to discredit them. Look how the Chinese gov't labeled practitioners of Falun Gong cultists. Labeling them as such granted them the right (in their twisted little minds)to persecute, imprison, torture and murder these "cultists." On the term occult. That is about the most subjective term on the planet. A great deal of what is discussed here..chi, siddhis, meditation, OBE's, magick, yogic practices, meditation, the Self, chakras, nadis, etc. is absolutely considered occult by mainstream Western/Middle Eastern religions. You don't have to be wearing a robe, casting a circle and wearing a pentagram to be involved in the "occult." Anything that allows the individual to be empowered at the expense of the professed dogma is a threat and is therefore "occult." Meditation was "occult" in the Western world until relatively recently. Now its everywhere. The word occult simply means secret. Esotericism is simply the study and practice of seeking the deep meanings buried beneath the superficial presentation of a religion or philosophy. These is esoteric Christianity (gnostic and esoteric Christianity specifically), esoteric Judaism (Kabbalah or Qabalah..though there are signifigant differences), esoteric Islam (Sufism), etc. It is in seeking of the esoteric and the occult within a religion or philosophy that one may learn the deep, dogma transcending and liberating truths hidden in the spiritually dead husks of organized religion. Love and Peace, Sundragon

I have done some intense "shadow work" over the years and encountered many of my demons. I have found it to be effective to realize that every darkness seen the the world from the most petty to the most terrible is something that is within human nature...my nature. To accept this truth brings freedom and balance. I am as capable as anyone of terrible cruelty, meanness, thoughtlessness, violence, etc. but I get to choose to either feed or starve these demons through my choice of focus. I choose to focus on love, compassion, forgiveness and peace while at the same time ackowledging and accepting "negative" emotional states when they arise. In accepting them these states will pass. It is only in repressing them under a veneer of sweet "spiritual" platitudes that they grow stronger and more perverse in their expression. I, you, all of us contain within us both all the glory of angels and all the wickedness of demons. The microcosm is a reflection of the macrocosm. As above so below. I highly recommend the book Radical Acceptance in regards to accepting your whole self. Any denied aspect of the self will re-arise eventually. There is no escape save in acceptance, acceptance will eventually bring transformation. Love and Peace

I'll be trying this as soon as I can. Thanks. Love and Peace, Sundragon

Absolutely. The more specialized instruction needed the more it should cost. Predicated on our assumption that most teachers would rather be paid than not. For those that wish to work for free....more power to them. Its all about choice. I aim to be a /threadkiller when I'm able. Love and Peace, Sundragon

Short answer...YES. It is entirely appropriate for someone who doesn't live in a monastary off the donations of others to ask for payment for any and all services as they so choose. Outside of those living in monastaries or mountaintops these teachers have bills, families to support, mortgages to pay, food to buy and, dare I say it, some luxuries they might wish to have. You aren't unspiritual if you desire a nice, cozy lifestyle for yourself so long as you aren't attached and you also do good with your money. Some folks seem to expect people who have specialized knowledge and who make their only livelyhood teaching to do it all for free. What and get a day job to pay the bills so they can appear more spiritual? It is a dream of many who have specialized knowledge and a passion for what they do to be able to make a comfortable living doing what they love to do. It takes time to set up a curriculum. It takes time to create a product to sell to prospective students. It takes up a lot of time trianing and teaching others even if it something that is fulfilling. Time is perhaps the teacher's most valuable resource because every moment with their students is time away from other important obligations they may have such as their family. At last if they are teaching for 8hrs a day and getting paid they won't need to work a second job to pay their bills and be forced to spend even more time away from their family or even their personal spiritual practices. I don't care personally that guru whatshisface and master whatshisname lived on air and sunlight, only ate the chi of devotees and shit rose pettles that radiated unconditional love...that was a different time even if that kind of stuff is true which I doubt. We live in this world at this time. No one has the right to expect something for nothing and to expect solid, specialized instruction for free in a world where the teacher requires money to survive is nonsensical and reeks of an entitlement mindset. No insult intended. I know certain things and it took me a lot of time (years depending on what it is) and money (specialized trainings, books, seminars, etc.) to learn those things. If I choose to give knowlege away fine, it is mine to give. However I have every right to asked to be compensated for my work and an exchange of energy isn't going to put food on my table or buy my son's clothing for school. If I am fortunate enough to teach full time in the future that will be both my passion and my livelihood and so long as I am honest (which I would be) about what a student could expect regarding what I am teaching them then I have a right to not only ask for compensation but to ask whatever payment I wish. And because I am not forcing someone to accept my training, they can either pay or refuse. I apologize if this post seems angry as that wasn't my intention. It is my goal to teach esoteric/spiritual ideas as I have 25yrs of combined experience with a number of subjects and to see that some actually seem to think that making money teaching spiritual subject matter/practice is somehow wrong is hard to accept. I think that greed is a huge negative, but it is up to each person to find out what kind of livelihood is right livelihood 'for them' and to find balance because. As in all things, one must be careful but I believe a balance is certainly possible. I think it is unbalanced to expect that all spiritual teachers live as ascetics to prove how "spiritual" they are. Love and Peace, Sundragon

It works insofar as binaural beats help the brain to more easily access altered states of consciousness. However, Holosync as a whole is very, very overpriced as they are still using binaural beats alone which is early/mid 80's mind tech. The secret of Holosync is the Singing bowls that play during the first half hour. They seem to give off a resonance that entrains to deep theta or even delta so the binaural beats don't have to do that much...because they don't. There are far more effective methods available now such as isochronic beats and panning that a shown to be much more effective in getting the brain to get to the desired level quickly. There is software called Neuro-programmer 2 by Transparent Corp. that wil allow you to build your own tracks that are even more effective than holosync. I have been building me own for years. They also have professional level software called Mind Workstation which I just purchased to create my own program for retail sail eventually. I would say that the following entrainment solutions are good, equally effective or better than holosync without ripping a giant whole in your bank account: Equisync Insight by Imramma Institute Lifeflow Meditation2.0 (pricey but still overall cheaper than holosync) Brain Evolution System (see above) And no matter what anyone says, entrainment is no more a crutch than ocean sounds, singing bowls, chanting monks or a shaman's drum. Entering altered states of consciousness is a learned experience. The brain remembers a state it has been in previously maqking it easier and easier to enter that state again. No matter what entrainment method you use, you will still need to be able to remain aware and alert whatever your depth of relaxation if you want to actually be meditating which is at times harder especially if you are entrianing to theta brainwave level (the level of deep trance/rem sleep and dreams). One can do mantra, vipassana, breath counting, etc. while listening to an entrainment track but one still must actually meditate to get the benefit of meditation not just trance out to the track. If all someone wants is to relax then meditation technique doesn't matter. Love and Peace, Sundragon