Spectrum

Definately a natural phenom. I've got lots of favorites past and present that are charged charms I'm sure. I was taught that a practitioner circulates in order to refine, that the ability to switch the circuit on and off is the first step prior to circulating. The primary purpose of circulating (at least what has been shared with me) is the refining process. The primary purpose of refining is for the cultivation of the 3 treasures, which in turn have their manifestion through the expressions and experiences of the practitioner. This idea of "charging up" with the MCO isn't foreign to me; just that i've experienced that only as a part of a larger natural process. That is continually impressed on me; the naturalness of Taoist practices. I think this is due to the emphasis on stillness and emptiness, so a lot of positive reflections occur in simple observation of the natural Way all around. I think this actually includes the MCO, in so far as if a practitioner continually observes and pays attention to subtly they eventually discover the times, places and circumstances in which the MCO naturally occurs. With regular silence one (possibly) becomes more in tune with what is occuring in and around them naturally; practice at this point simply amplifies what occurs naturally. What happens naturally is what happens spontaneously. "Great movements are not as efficient as small movements. Small movements are not as efficient as stillness.Stillness is the mother of eternal movement" - Wang Xian Zhai In my own practice if I cling to a thought while circulating I can feel the flow of energy change followed by changes in breath and posture. At this point I am usually reminded that thoughts are things. Particulally conscious thought seems to effect the downward flow through the ren, partically when thoughts are fixed or obsessve. Instead of focusing on associating sensations w/ the mental activity; no thought = smooth flow. The basic prerequisites of Taoist meditation techniques is a mental state called "Sung" which is a psychophysical state associated with non-attachment, emptiness, relaxation & the action potential. If I was to offer objection to the "method" described it would not be oriented around such things as right and wrong. My observation of non-spontaneous ritual in general, is there is a lot of thought involved. I'm no judge if it works, is right, is dangerous, etc. I can only say my experience with thought, and how it effects own energy circulation while conducting such practices as an MCO, which was mentioned here and my main interest in responding. "Man is a thinking reed but his great works are done when he is not calculating and thinking. "Childlikeness" has to be restored with long years of training in the art of self-forgetfulness. When this is attained, man think yet he does not think. He thinks like the showers coming down from the sky; he thinks like the waves rolling on the ocean; he thinkins like the stars illuminating the nightly heavens; he thinks like the green foliage shooting forth in the relaxing spring breeze. Indeed, he is the showers, the ocean, the stars, the folieage. When a man reaches this stage of "spiritual" development, he is a Zen artist of life. He does not need, like the painter, a canvas, brushes, and paints; nor does he require, like the archer, the bow and arrow and target, and other other paraphernalia. He has his limbs, body, head, and other parts. " D.T. Suzuki (Introduction to "Zen and the Art of Archery" 1953 - Translated from German) On one hand, statements like this strike me as simply uninformed. On the other, and to the extreme, this sounds like a justification for non-conscientious living, saying that the Way is anything. Yet anything isn't emptiness. Emptiness isnt anything. Traditionally a Taoist follows the Way. A Buddhist works out their Dharma. Although there are not the distinguishing dualist traits of the west, in order for there to be a Way or a Path, there must also be a Lost. In the practice of the Arts you either hit your mark or you do not. You make a statement that there is no western notion of right or wrong in the practice of esoteric arts (you generalize those arts which is another issue) However there is success and failure, and a growth curve proportional to the associated pressures. On the way to the watering hole selective pressures take their toll. Spectrum

Fairly charged responses to my rather benign statement. Please don't assume I am attacking thelerner. Last time I checked a talisman was a talisman, an object of protection; an amulet. The lerners method is an interesting blend. I find it curious because of it's eclectisism, I hope I don't sound critical of your talisman creation. Spectrum

I intend. So you're using your "mco" for personal goals? Interesting perspective.

... so... has anyone gone out and practiced in one yet? Geometry is movement language. I'm planning on going next season. Spectrum

If my dialog has been percieved as attacking then I have not succeeded in presenting my thoughts genuinely enough. This forom is a nice way to have a healthy dialog beyond the sound bite associations currently prevelant in western culture. I'm not intent on attacking or personally insulting anyone, simply intent on studying the truth of matters at hand. Chia is one voice in the choir. I havn't ever met him in person. I won't say he doesn't have any information that isn't worthwhile, but I don't base my personal practice on guidance from his books. I think it's a hard thing to judge. My knee jerk response is to agree with you. However, how does one judge success outside of comparing ones own personal experiences to others? Qualifying a "CCO" experience as you've described seems very general. Piping higher levels (frequencies/etc) of consciousness into the realm of language is a bit of a challenge as we're currently experiencing in this thread. In my opinion an MCO could be completed in a single sitting if the mindset of the individual and the environmental setting is just right. My reasons for saying this is simply because sometimes success isn't based on what you know, but on what you don't, so sometimes people try something once and succeed, yet spend the next 10 years trying to "get back" to where they were at the start. Another consideration, based on my own subjective experiences, is that of time dialation at certain points during training; in which a process that has taken X amount of time shrinks to a fraction, only to become a seamless experience which no longer needs a 'process' (requiring time) to happen again. I simply call this learning. Some may attribute mystical significance to the observation of their internal processes, I call it natural. Opening the Thousand Petalled Lotus Blossom? Poetry or music would draw nearer. "ones own energy dynamo" is a clear yet possibly subjective observation? But assuming our personal dynamos all originate from approx the same place, this could be objective as well. Ultimately this isn't in my view a negative, as subjective and objective experience can merge in the unity of meditative consciousness. The rigors of defining that which is undefinable gives warrent to teachers far wiser then I to sharing through allegory, metaphor, and practice, instead of through words alone. I've always wondered if people who were close enough to have actually "survived" the Mt. St. Helens eruption wear those t-shirts with all the burn marks on them that say "I survived the Mount Saint Helens Eruption"... I'm reminded at this point of the Nine Songs in which the ancient Chinese shaman is charactarized as having a love affair with the Spirit, much like the Bride and Bridegroom is an allegory in the new testament for the church and Christ. Perhaps here we sit on the boundary between metephysical practice and religion when we speak of Love. I will qoute two of the Nine Songs below. "And consequently, by the 'art' of archery he does not mean the ability of the sportsman, which can be controlled, more or less, by bodily exercises, but an ability whose origin is to be sought in spiritual exercises and whose aim consists in hitting a spiritual goal, so that fundamentally the marksman aims at himself and may even succeed in hitting himself." - Zen & The Art of Archery 1953 "The Nine Songs" - Love Manifest in Ancient Chinese Shamanism Summary: In Ancient China the shaman was prophet, healer, dancer and singer, sometimes regarded an outcast, though treated always with high consideration. In these beautiful songs, known in China since at least the second century A.D., the always fleeting relationship of shaman and Spirit is seen as that of lovers. Excerpts: Song II The Lord Amid the Clouds I have washed in brew of orchid, bathed in sweet scents Many-coloured are my garments; I am like a flower. Now in long curves the Spirit has come down in a blaze of brightness unending. Chien! He is comin to rest at the Abode of Life; As a sun, as a moonbeam glows his light. In dragon chariot and the vestment of a god Hither and thither a little while he moves. The Spirit in great majesty came down; Now he soars up swiftly amid the clouds. He looks down on the province of Chi and far beyond; He traverses to the Four Seas; endless his flight. Longing for that Lord I heave a deep sigh; My heart is greatly troubled; I am very sad. Song V The Big Lord of Lives The gates of Heaven are open wide; Off I ride, borne on a dark cloud! May the gustywinds be my canguard, May sharp showers sprinkle the dust! The Lord wheels in his flight, he is coming down; I will cross Kung-Sang and attend upon you. But all over the Nine Provinces there are people in throngs; Why think that his task is among us? High he flies, peacefully winging; On pure air borne aloft he hands Yin and Yang. I and the Lord, solemn and reverent, On our way to God cross over the Nine Hills. He trails his spirit-garment, Dangles his girdle-gems. One Yin for every Yang; The crowd does not understand what we are doing. I pluck the sparse-hemps lovely flower, Meaning to send it to him from who I am separated. Age creeps on apace, all will soon be over; Not to draw nearer is to drift further apart. He has driven his dragon chariot, loudly rumbling; High up he gallops into Heaven.

Their ok. Like anything learn from them and move on. Bi naural frequencies have known effects of synronizing left/right hemispheres, etc. A full sensory deprivation chamber would be nice too. ... or meditating in a cave. Spectrum

Thank you. Beautifully expressed.

My thoughts on this, which IMHO the time would be better put to use if we weren't thinking about this at all, but a number of pointed statements are made in which I would like to address. A sure fire way to set yourself up for dissapointment and failure is to have expectations on the outcome of any practice. If it works for you keep doing it. I suppose it's obvious but I'll ask anyways... what information are you refering to? Nor does one enlightened claim to be so. Those who talk, don't know. Those who know, don't talk. I agree that we're refering to a very specific process in human development, yet comparing "enlightenment" experiences over the internet seems very contrary to my practice so... Ahh. Traditionally 100 days initiation period, 2 years foundation-unification process... 10 years to complete your circuit? Sounds about right. Give or take 5-15 years. <shrug> Thats about right for most all "art" that can be practiced by humans, less they be "special kids". Everyone has different hangups and some learn to ride the wave right away. I agree that although any number of warm fuzzies may be an promising indication of success in the chapter of taoist cultivation, I would attribute failures by westerners past these initial phases of cultivation to an over-reliance on the visualization or "guiding" process that has been promoted in the west by folks attempting to propagate meditation practice, particularlly "techniques", through books, videos and CD's. When in reality Oral tradition is the ONLY way to recieve proper instruction. Furthermore these sensations become distractions themselves. I think some people stumble upon the truth indeed, but this is the exception, not the norm. There is simply to much conditioning for it to be. My short answer? Could be a number of reasons. Maybe they fail to regard the pre-requisites of meditation by not abstaining from the various harms. Maybe they are thinking and not empti minding it. Maybe just maybe they just arn't ready for "it". If there is one thing I have discovered it is built in safeguards to prevent those who are not ready from experiencing things they are not ready for. Personally I think the biggest hindrence is ego attachment and identification of self with said experiences. For the dedicated cultivator, I would say simply that from my perspective you always start where you last left off. For this reason one should proceed methodically and carefully. To delve one harmonic deeper into those who attempt to experience certain levels of consciouessness prior to when they are "ready", particularlly those whos mind are not properly prepared, risk permanent problems i.e. chi/kundalini sicknesses, spirit posession/harrasment, unwanted oobe's, and a general tendancy towards mania or a number of mind/body dysfunctions. Wth that said I can not judge others practices. No way no how. I've experienced many "peak experiences" that I attribute to continually practicing Taoist meditation/cultivation exercises, following Taoist principles of geomancy, and practicing Taoist martial art with an emphasis on yeilding. As for focusing on any one peak experience, I do not, although many of them repeat w/ increase or lessened intensity through consistant practice with cyclic regularity, be it daily, weekly or monthly. But by focusing on any one aspect of consciousness, any one experience, any one "feeling" as it were, would really be a distraction, and isn't really "how" the experiences that are worthwhile, tranformative, and life changing transpire in the first place. I agree with you in your statements concerning the rampant use of scripts being counter productive to the empitness required to succeed in the process of what's being called the "MCO". Pain and Ecstasy being closely related I will not qualify or disqualify anothers practice based on the description of such subjective experiences as a "CCO". Surfing the Tao, Spectrum

I enjoy the journey as much as reaching the next destination. By my understanding Jing is converted to Chi and is circulated to cultivate Shen.

Life is foreplay and afterglow bro. Lighten up.

Does anyone know the metaphorical significance of "Fair Maiden Working Shuttles" in Tai Chi? The Nei Jing Tu digram also has a Fair Maiden; I am curious if the object next to her has a name (looking like a pole w/ some type of disc or drum on it); is this a pictrographic reference to the shuttles metaphor? What is She Shuttling? Spectrum

Beautiful descriptions. Thank you. It looks like a large spool... a weaving shuttle... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle_(weaving)

Although related through the medium of movement I have not found Tai Chi Chuan (TaiJiQuan) and Chi Gung (QiQong) experientially synonymous. Close yes, but not the same. The thing that comes immediately to the surface of my mind is the differences in breathing. Some Chi Gungs may regulate w/ a slow even 'natural' breath or abdominal breath the same as Tai Chi Chuan, but from my perspective the types of breaths common to Chi Gung, their timing and effects qualify ChiGung as experientially unique from Tai Chi Chuan. This isn't to say that Tai Chi can not be performed w/ any type of breath regulation you like, (that seems like a very Taoist sort of experimentation / methodology...) in my own journeys I have experimented w/ a multitude of breathing rhythms. "Condensation", "reverse", "fire", "long" breathing, etc, during a variety of activities. While the results of practicing Tai Chi Chuan are undoubtbly connected to the quality of ones breath, as is ANY movement of the human form, the overall results from 30 min of TaiJi are qualitatively different then practicing ChiGung for the same amount of time, in a repetitive manner, flow (form) or freestyle practice. While the practices can be performed independantly, I believe they are synergetically interdependant and a practitioner who finds himself in one, may naturally evolve into the other and vice versa. Here are some of my current observations of the two practices: Tai Chi Chuan: Movement Meditation: 30 min to practice the whole set (yang 108). Classical Principles: Principles which transcend attributes such as muscular strength & speed Bio Mechanical Principles: Phi, Footwork & stance; fluidity & form, sphericity of movement & range Combative Principles: Inquiry process amplified through form analysis. Non combative/competitive two person practice via push hands Chi Circulation: Post practice wuji (or any other posture) standing amplified. Chi circulation seems externally generated. Classical Texts: There are a number of classical texts concerning Tai Chi Chuan. Texts of personal interest include the poetry of the Yang family and the classic "40 poems" by Wu Cheng Ching. Movement Vocabulary: By providing a "matrix" of movement possibilities, and linking them systematically through the progressive vocabulary of the form, a student gradually becomes familiar with the language / style of the movement and works towards formulating their own form or movement poetry, or freestyle approach to movement. I think this is the means to the end of forms, the translation of musical understanding into freestyle jazz improvization. Chi Gung: Movement or Still Meditation: Time no matta! Single Point & Field Awareness - mind/body relaxation being the primary factor here. (sung) Breathing Principles: Combination of rythmic breathing w/ movement translates to a variety of everyday movements & activities. Primary Bio Mechanical Alignments: Basic ranges of movement (wei dan) naturally compliment daily movements. Naturally align and correct poor choices in movement patterns, harmonize intent w/ movement. Chi Circulation: cultivate awareness, clear blockages, tonify meridians, circulate, redistribute & store.

When practice is good it almost happens by itself.

I like the secret code of the ages explaination more... I got my ring in the mail finally geez! ;o)

Crop Circles Quest for Truth was good. Same director as Waco Rules of Engagement.

Anyone gung it up in a crop circle after formation? I've read in Silvas book "Mysteries in the Fields" that some formations produce ecstatic feelings when you travel in one direction around, and produce nausa etc when you travel the other direction! The language of mandalas seems a reasonably logical basis for investigation and practical experimentation into such matters. This is a very very very old form of "thinking" in my opinion. Symbolic representations most definately have a navigational effect and offer many insights into the nature being. Spectrum

How about full length Mens Cheongsoms? Thanks again.

Don't waste your time on it.

Quan Yin is Buddhist Goddess of Compassion.

Schizofrenics have an un-naturally high amount of DMT in their brainchemistry. Mind what windows you open and close in your house. The standards of minding "set & setting" are as advisable for the psychonaut as the meditator. Spectrum PS- it's easier to meditate in a clean house.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3...hands&hl=en Nice use of momentum in the push hands at the very end, nice posture and flow. Chen Stylist, I'd say in his late 70s or 80's?

Has anyone experimented much with the Feng Shui of meditation space both indoors and out?

Dude we're all fu'ing out!