Spectrum

Is this a Wei Dan or Nei Dan Chi Gung? Meaning are these moving or still or combinations of both? How many individual movements (musical scores are called movements as well) does each practice routine contain? Has anyone had phenomenological/kinesthetic events produced? i.e. i felt dizzy or my back popped back into place or i merged w/ the universe, etc Is there any mention to the "firing time" of the breath in coordinated rhythms? I.E. Natural or Abdominal, Reverse, Condensation, Fire etc? How far do they go into sounds associated with organs and elements? Anything about the accoustics of body cavities? Classical chinese music uses the pentatonic scale. The associated harmonics and proportions speak intellegently enough for themselves without our interpretation. Anything about the mental state of "Sung" or "Song"? Spectrum

Bunkminster Fuller swore that when he stood still he felt the rotation of the earth through the heavens.

Emulations of drooling towards enlightenment.

I'd say if your feeling like your floating and sinking at the same time your doing something right. Sounds like Taoist wisdom.

I second the statement that "the do-it-yourself TCM approach is risky"; especially when it comes to taking herbs. Seek qualified TCM or Acupuncturist diagnosis. In my honest opinion food is the most powerful drug we put in our bodies and a diet limited processesed and refined foods should aid in balancing body mind & spirit.

Emptiness of mind seems to be a basic pre-req for Taoist meditation techniques. After a while of reflecting on the WHYs of this, I think simply that there is a variety of information flowing around and through us at all times, and once the "internal dialog" is quiet, there is a type of bodily intelligence that is juxaposed w/ "knowing" oif the conscious mind.

<- knees and hui yin? this would be 3 points of the base, with the pei hui (crown) being the capstone and 4th point to the pyramid... I've noticed a certain importance to stacking the vertebra in as vertical of a manner as possible, whether sitting indian style, half lotus, full lotus or standing. .

A few (3-4) leaves of dandelion on a green salad every other day should help move stagnent liver qi. Don't overdue it; your'll deplete your wei qi. Avoid the things your avoiding. Short fasts from stimulants like coffee are benificial. Avoid alcohol, super hot spices, refined sugar, anger & obsession. All will contribute to stagnent liver. Breaking a sweat at least once a day (anything from forms to cycling), standing stake practice and smaller portions of food more often should balance everything out. If your experiencing sensations in your abdominal cavity I suggest seeing a qualified acupuncturist to get the energy moving, then supplement your acupuncture appts w/ your tai chi / chi gung training to engrain the new patterns into your way of life. To your health and training, Spectrum

Count me in for being interested as well. Love to practice in traditional clothing. Thanks for your generosity in this venture. -Spectrum

Isn't Wu Ji the foundation of EVERY form of Chinese somatic discipline?

Choose your ground carefully.

I'd love to see some video of the things you're talking about if possible. So are you expanding or shrinking the principles? What manner of attainment are you speaking of in relationship to growth using the medium of the form? In relationship to "form" lets assume you mean there is a physical meaning to it, as in deflect parry punch. How much have you seen this changed? Perhaps I should rephrase my question, let me use Deflect parry punch, if one understand the essense of it, which is to say the biomechanical and energetic qualities of the movement and intent, applied to any direction, shrinks or expands macro and micro cosmically (demostrated by the 108 multiple times and a lovely example of what "classic" means in my current state of opinion), still retains it's original meaning regardless of it's external apperance when any shrinkage of expanding occurs. So I'm wondering what meaning the "revealed" form has through it's cultivation internally or externally? Can you expound on this a bit? The phrase that sticks out above to me is "One can move in any manner, if the foundation is properly anchored, the movements will be fluid" ... with this i agree... that the movements will be fluid, but honestly, how can we say that a movement is Tai Chi Chuan without refering to the 13 postures or the application of the form? Spectrum

Temper stillness with Movement. Temper movement with Stillness. Form and Emptiness balance. Wu Ji (emptiness) is the connective structure holding together TaiJiQuan. To focus on intent at the price of form is externaly meaningless. To focus on form at the price of intent is internally meaningless. True martial / healing art is neither internal nor external. There are arts which simply lead one to focus on natural attributes which make up only parts of the human whole. The sum of the Whole... is greater than the parts. Practice makes perfect. Spectrum PS- for some insight as to how much "form" matters, you should study the martial applications of any form. Also some simple practice at things like throwing & catching, golf, baseball, will amplify the importance of "form" in the "transmission of energy" which so many people love to make a mystical experience, but which in reality is the most natural normal thing in the universe for a human being. We should enjoy being One for as long as we can. Many movement arts are revealers of mysteries. Don't forget the power of a left jab. PPS - From my perspective Chi Gung (Wai Dan) is moving except for using sound, which is simply movement on a smaller scale. Nei Dan is stillness (pile standing / whateva yawannacallit). There is a balance between and one leads to the other. In the Taoist Arts when your doing moving chi gung there is stillness in the movement, which means externally you are moving, internally you are still. Again, when your being still, there is movement is your stillness, which means externally it looks as if you are being still, internally you are moving. Thus the Taoist saying "Stillness in Movement; Movement in Stillness." Best Regards to your training, Spectrum

... Then internalize the ball into your dan tien. Now be the ball.

This is turning into an interesting thread. I agree that the 108 is multi-dimensional dope. Multiple levels of related patterns building upon themselves to make the whole. It oozes classicism, and in my opinion is the fruit of three generations of successive masters culminated in Yang Cheng Fu. I've seen the form executed within a range of long and short movements, long, medium or short stances, and individual personality of the practitioner, which are the primary fluctuations I am used to seeing. Are the changes you speak of in the TaiJiQuan of "cultivated masters" related to the organizational qualities of the form or the technical qualities of the movements? Are we talking about freestyling the 108? Sounds good to me! If the form becomes a medium for spontaneous chi gung, the practitioner maintains a guiding anchor to his internal travels. Spectrum

Your hands can also become cold when you have a higher amount of nervous tension / anxiety, which might be on account of it being your first meeting / class.

In my research on the Eight ways and Five steps I've found any of the Yang family songs are lovely to read before practice. They really capture an essense of each movement. I've excerpted these poems from a book titled "Yang Family Secret Transmissions" Translated by Douglas Wile 1983. --- Songs of the Eight Ways (attributed to Tan Meng-Hsien) The Song of Ward-Off How can we explaint the energy of Ward-Off? It is like water which supports a moving boat. First make the chi in the tan-tien substantial. Then hold the head as if suspended from above. The whole body has the power of a spring. Opening and closing should be clearly defined. Even if the opponent uses a thousand pounds of force, We will float lightly and without difficulty. The Song of Roll-Back How can we explain the energy of Roll-back? We draw the opponent towards us by alloing him to advance, While we follow his incoming force. Continuing to draw him in until he overextends, We remain light and comfortable, without losing our vertical posture. When his force is spent he will naturally be empty, While we maintain out center of gravity, And can never be bested by the opponent. The Song of Press How can we explain the energy of Press? Sometimes we use two sides To directly receive a single intention. Meeting and combining in one movement, We indirectly receive the force of the reaction. This is like a ball bouncing off a wall, Or a coin dropped on a drum, Which bounces up with a metallic sound. The Song of Push How can we explain the energy of Push? When applied, it's like water in motion But within its softness there is great strength. When the flow is swift, the force cannot be withstood. Meeting high places the waves break over them, And encountering low places they dive deep. The waves rise and fall, And finding a hole they will surely surge in. The Song of Pull-Down How can we explain the energy of Pull-down? Like weighing something on a balance scale, We give free play to the opponents force whether great or small. After weighing it we know it's lightness or heaviness. Turning on only four onces, We can weigh a thousands pounds. If we ask what is the principle behind this, We discover it is the function of the lever. Song of Split How can we explain the energy of Split? Revolving like a flywheel, If something is thrown against it, It will be cast off at a great distance. Whirlpools appear in swift flowing streams, And the curling of waves are like spirals. If a falling leaf lands on their surface, In no time it will sink from sight. The Song of Elbow-Stroke How can we explain the energy of Elbow-stroke? Out method must be reckoned by the Five Elements. Yin and yang are divided above and below, And full and empty should be clearly distinguished. The opponent cannot keep up with out continuous movement, And our explosive pounding is even fiercer. When the six energies have been thoroughly mastered, Then the applications will be infinate. The Song of Shoulder-Stroke How can we explain the energy of SHoulder-stroke? The method is divided between shoulder and back. The posture "Diagonal Flying" uses the shoulder, But between the shoulders there is also the back. When suddenly an opportunity presents itself, Then it crashes like a pounding pestle. Yet we must be careful to maintain our center of gravity, For losing it we will surely fail. Songs of the Five Steps Song of Advance When it is time to advance, advance without hesitation. If you meet no obstacle, continue to advance. Failing to advance when the time is right is a lost opportunity. Seizing the opportunity to advance, you will surely be the victor. Song of Retreat If our steps follow the changes of our body, then our technique will be perfect. We must avoid fullness and emphasize emptiness so that our opponent lands on nothing. To fail to retreat when retreat is called for is neither wise nor courageious. A retreat is really an advance if we can turn it to a counter-attack. Song of Gaze-Left To the left, to the right, yin and yang change according to the situation. We evade to the left and strike from the right with strong sure steps. The hands and feet work together and likewise knees, elbows and waist. Our opponent cannot fathom our movements and has no defense against us. Song of Look-Right Feigning to the left, we attack to the right with perfect steps. Striking left and attacking right, we following the opportunities. We avoid the frontal and advance from the side, seizing changing conditions. Left and right, full and empty, our technique must be faultless. Song of Central Equilibrium We are centered, stable and still as a mountain. Our chi sinks to the tan-tien and we are as if suspended from above. Our spirit is concentrated within and our outward maner perfectly composes. Recieving and issuing energy are both the work of an instant.

I'm in the process of trying to locate an Academic translation source for the poems and text of the Nei Jing Tu. I will post here when I find it.

First off lighten up on yourself a bit, we're all human and you sound like a normal guy. There are beautiful women everywhere, and remember it's the light on the inside that shines, the outside will dwindle, the inside will shine through line fine wine w/ age. Look for that glimmer in the eyes. Second off. Who taught or is teaching you? (I don't care really, but ask your teacher for advice no?) For some reason this comes to mind: Aikido has a wonderful saying in the book "The Dynamic Sphere" : "Vertical posture is the height of ones aspirations, horzonal posture is the source of their life... " So what to do w/ the extra charge? Depending on how often your standing, standing practice should be tempered w/ movement. At 20, it's no doubt that standing will produce a serious charge that will naturally flow to the path of least resistance. No quite honestly that extra charge can be channeled into relationships seamlessly. But if a relationship doesn't exist and it's just a frustrating bother? I would recommend a regular workout regime that involves a variety of movements, cardio, etc, OR a martial art of the internal variety. Either way what you looking to do is give yourself a natural outlet and growth opportunity for the energy you are collecting and refining through pile standing. Finding a concrete method of 'burning off' through physical exercise or 'circulating' through a practice such as Tai Chi or various other internal arts is your best bet of discovering the next level of practice within yourself and discovering deeper levels of discipline to maintain your practice. As you've said the practice has gripped your consciousness and you don't feel like you can stop, that's a good indication that it is time to expand your boundaries and seek this next level your looking for. I would not recommend standing meditation w/ no other practices simply because of the charge built up and the possibiity for psycological amplifications and imbalances. It's ok for health reasons, but if your healthy already I would say get a heavy bag and start practicing "discharging" (there is a reason this is called DIScharging) or find a gym w/ some cardio activities, grappling, gymnastics, ANYTHING.... Again, finding meditation practice partners, a Tai Chi group, Moving Chi Gung, etc etc might be another natural tangent for you at this juncture. Also any repetitive conscious activity will give yourself a practical energetic 'wedge' between behaviors non-condusive to your psycho-physical-spiritual well being and behaviors that are! Of coarse limiting exposure to "stimulating" media is also an option if your feeling "overstimulated". Of coarse Taoists strive to release their attachments to such things, so the 'urge' has it's associations, but is also an engine and motivation for a spectrum of energetic to physical activitivities, arts, practices and disciplines. Again what comes to mind is Tai Chi or a Martial Art w/ true fighting Merit. Rest knowing it's far better to have excess and not know what to do w/ it then not have any and be scratching your head at what all this 'vibration' talk is about. Your way ahead of the game. Some folks wait until their life friskiness isn't there before they undertake the work of the gung, some people never realize anything and walk about in the dark concerning the sources of their own meditations in life. You don't sound like that at all. Regards to your quest for the Tao - and welcome to the forum: Spectrum

I think this is wise. The foundational structure of Tai Chi is based on Wu Ji, a physical as well as metaphysical foundation exercise in Chinese Martial / Health Arts. Since we know that the paths between the 13 postures are found through following the bodies natural affinity for wu ji (relax and let gravity move you) it's safe to say that tai chi chuan can be an effective medium for the physiology associated w/ altered states of consciousness. I know this is suppose to be an inventory list of what you know, but honestly I hate laundry lists on the internet, as there is a unhealthy trend arrising w/ information technologies of 'collecting' information. This trend is not embodiment of that knowledge, rather it's almost plagerism to me. I do want to share w/ the hearts of fellow seekers of the Tao, so if my post seems like it's tangental, it is slightly, yet still having to do w/ the practice of gung, and w/ the topics brought up in the thread... I was going to ask this as well, Darebak beat me 1/2 way; is there was any one of these styles that on a daily basis reproducable results are experienced? Are there parrellels in these practices that mirror one another that are producing similar subjective or objective results? It is my experience that by "trying" to reproduce experiences, they are kept out of grasp. So even though experiences of progress in the gung (work) show themselves in daily life, the mind can prevent those signs from re-surfacing when you 'try' to reproduce the phenomena. It's a paradox indeed, yet perhaps a 'safeguarding' mechanism of some type. At this point I must reassert my position that chi gung is not just about checking off a list of events. It's about checking your ego in at a your own door. Only then can you travel past your percieved limitations, and grow. So how does one change their chi gung practice in order to explore past these phenomenolocal signs of progress in chi gung training? There are a number of psycho-phsyiological signs that act as a road map during standing or moving meditation. These signs are not stillness or movement itself. They are simply signs pointing down the road of proper cultivation. They are reassurances that you are practicing chi (breath) gung (work). Many of the spontaneously experienced sensations of moving chi gung are experienced in stillness; since these phenomenon occur from a reverse perspective, or the movement of stillness. I must emphasis that what is personally observable in stillness is really just a biofeedback tool to reassure you that practice is occuring. The observable phenomenon is not the goal, simply a marker. "What is mind? No matter. What is matter? Never mind." - George Berkeley Wu Ji is the standing posture most pratitioners of the chinese internal disciplines begin with. Wu Ji resembles a slight squat while hugging a tree. A Tai Chi practitioner may choose any of the 13 postures or 5 steps to spend time exploring stillness. For general chi gung practice, Wu Ji is the most common posture. It's known by various names such as Universal Post, Health Stance, Pile Stance, etc. After standing any random period of time (dependent on the individual) you may experience the following. These are all signs you are regulating & balancing the body and with practice they will pass. 1. Tightness localized anywhere in the body. (a reminder to relax and let your whole body do the work. Before you close the posture attempt to relax the area feeling tight. Unify that which is seperate.) 2. An increase in heart-rate and blood-flow to extremities. (more circulation to cells) 3. Deeper breathing cycles. 4. Blotchy hands/skin. Sweating and/or increase in skin oils. (increase in lymphatic & endocrine function) 5. Twitches or muscular palpitation. 6. Hot-Cold flashes. 7. Spontaneous correction of posture or re-allignment of structure. 8. Spontaneous emotions / inspiration. 9. Deep memory recall. 10. Withdrawal from extraneous mental activities. These are all signs you are regulating & balancing the body and with practice they will pass.

Opening up your feet is a good practice. Western Shoes have deformed feet from a young age. Opening your feet will not only treat illness through 'reflexology' but will give you a better connection to the earth, better balance and stability, and mo betta Tai Chi Chuan or Chi Gung, etc. Generally speaking the feet, hands and ears are microcosms of the whole body and there can be a lot said for taking the time to simply rub the kinks out of these.

I know where I'll be standing tonight!

Anyone know where we can get a translation of the Nei Jing Tu or the Xiu Zhen?

Have you seen any videos of him move?

I wonder if that's what the classics meant when they talk about the square within the circle and the circle within the square. heh That's like pop-locking. "The dantian rotation is three dimensional and should move with ease in all directions." This is the truth. 3 axis minimum to even exist. So many stylists isolate their movemens to one place. This simply doesnt move the body through it's lovingly ingrained spirals.