Sunya

There is a difference between feeling subtle vibrations and the physical body literally shaking.

I wasn't trying to make anyone feel bad. Essentially what he's doing is going into a random place full of people and asking them for "experiences/opinions" - that's not smart. It's like going into a supermarket and walking around asking what a red spot means. I'm the person in the supermarket who said, "Um dude, go see a doctor." Now whether or not that supermarket might have a doctor or not is up for debate. I've been in that supermarket long enough to know that, sorry, we don't have any doctors. Just med students. As someone pointed out, maybe students would really be able to help. Yeah I can attest to that, I'm a student and I can probably tell him what to do, but what happens next? What if he progresses and has even more experiences, ones he can't handle? Will he come here again asking for advice? Let's not be deluded here about the ability of TaoBums to guide others in their spiritual progress. If anything, we'll just confuse the hell out of him due to the wide variance of theories and methodologies he'll receive once he asks for advice about more serious issues Yes I know teachers that I can personally guarantee to be extremely realized and extremely helpful and skillful. You're right though, if someone just goes looking for a teacher without knowing what to look for then that's pretty bad as well. That's a good point.

What is your motivation? Why do you want to do qi-gong and what do you want to accomplish?

Let's not resort to insults please. Gold is definitely not a Muslim nor is he a rationalist. He's obviously an empiricist and has made his feelings about Islam quite clear in the past Just curious if you have actually experienced this?

When I offer advice it's only about something that I'm very familiar with and most times I'll tell people to find a teacher anyway. If i'm having any serious spiritual issues, I have a couple very experienced teachers who I can contact directly with advice. They know me and my practice and can offer good advice. Asking for advice here about serious issues is just doomed for failure. not only is everyone in the same boat, as you said, but we don't know anyone else's condition. Perhaps this guy is practicing spontaneous qi gong where shaking is the point or maybe he's just having a seizure. Sharing our experiences is fine but telling this guy "no you should do this or that" will not help much, especially since there is a variance of opinion in this thread. Some people told him to relax others said control it, one person mistakingly thinks this guy is going to have an out of body experience Brick, what sort of practice are you doing? What exactly do you mean by 'meditating' ? Perhaps if you could be more specific I could guide you toward finding an answer.I'm familiar with Buddhist paths specifically concentration and insight practices. If you're doing insight (investigating and being mindful of all sensations) then shaking is common before a particular stage of insight called the A&P - If you're doing energy stuff then I don't really know

Um.. why are you seeking advice from amateurs on a webforum? Find a teacher who is experienced to guide you

I read the book as well and found it be very inspirational and cool. Sure it's full of lots of wild stuff like visions of other realms and siddhis manifesting. I found the book to be overall very positive though and sure he did write that he suffered in the beginning but I think he wrote that mainly it was due to his lack of surrender (I will double check though) - for sure though, the book was not as depressing as some of the posts on here. Perhaps it's because Muktananda finished the process and is coming from a different place. But it really did seem like overall his process was blissful and not much suffering involved after he surrendered and trusted his teacher, who he thought was the source of the transformation. I've said it before, there really is pragmatism in having devotion to a teacher. Calms you the hell down OKay I found the chapter.. it's called "My Confused State of Mind" which starts on page 73. He experiences fear of death, confusion, thinks he will either go mad or die, lots of visions, feels a power controlling him, extreme heat, inability to sleep, restlessness, spontaneous movements, pain in the body "My whole body ached and every pore felt like it was pierced by a thousand needles" -- This didn't last long though because he eventually had a vision the dissolution of the world into a great bright light when subsided into red light and from then on his meditation deepened and his attachment to the body lessened.

Enlightenment is not an event. It is the gaining of an insight which can happen through an event but sometimes not. And sometimes when people have experiences they don't have insights either so they are not mutually inclusive. It's also not repeating because if that's the case then that's not enlightenment you are talking about but an experience. You don't repeat the gaining of insights. Once you know your true nature there's no going back. If enlightenment is temporary then what's the point?

China is the Tao? interesting.

I don't think that Chandali and Kundalini are the same thing.. Both are Sanskrit terms and if they were the same, wouldn't the same term be used? Using fire to create bliss/heat and dissolve into the central channel is different than a latent cosmic force that takes over and basically rips you apart. If they are the same then Buddhists would be experiencing the same thing, but they never talk about it so something is going on here.. So when Tom Adams wrote that Rinpoche (this is a prominent Kagyu Rinpoche who is the teacher of 17th Karmapa) didn't know about Kundalini.. he means taht the Rinpoche doesn't know about this cosmic force that when awakens tears you up since Tibetans never experience it and they don't seem to experience Kundalini syndrome either that's why he wasn't able to help 1 practitioner who had those problems during retreat. Now I just wonder why? Do Tibetans do something to prevent this? and I do remember Namdrol posting that 'kriyas' are not seen as a good thing in Vajrayana. They signal an imbalance of some sort and you shouldn't really be having them if you are going about things in the right way. So clearly different effects are being produced if there are different experiences happening.

I actually emailed that guy a while back.. Tom Adams who you quoted above about Tibetans and Kundalini.. and this is what he wrote.. Hope he doesn't mind me posting it: So it's clear then that Kundalini, as we know it, is not experienced by Tibetan Buddhists since many Rinpoches just aren't familiar with it. There has to be a reason why they do not experience that phenomena and yet still achieve enlightenment and even incorporate energy practice into the mix. Theres a good book called Kundalini Tantra by a Swami, a famous teacher but I'm too lazy to google his name. PM me if you want the book. Very good book filled with exercises. Anyway he writes that you shouldn't even think about kundalini until you've done 2 years of regular Hatha yoga, worked on your mind, and purified your diet.

Mmm I don't know.. Kundalini isn't just prana or subtle energy.. it's the essence of prana. I think in Vajrayana they talk about Kundalini as a wisdom energy because it has qualities of bringing about wisdom, letting wisdom through, awakening to wisdom. In my experience, it does this by bringing forth what's deeply held onto. Unconscious mind patterns which are very strong and primal are made stronger. For me it's really been the fear of death.. that's been highlighted for me over and over again. So I really don't see this comparison of Kundalini as nothing important. It's certainly very useful and has a big part to play in the whole process that everybody goes through. Kundalini is only an annoyance that "gets in the way" if you don't surrender. Those who are devotional to the process are really just surrendering to it. Surrender leads to catharsis and letting go of deeply held patterns or "blockages." Once the mind is clear (or once the subtle energy is free of blockages) there is wisdom. I honestly think you are talking about something completely different than kundalini and that you have never actually experienced it.

Goal of Buddhism is not nondual awareness. It is realization of the selflessness of everything, kind of like realizing that it's all a hologram and everything is interconnected, but this reality, this world that we know, is still very important so we musn't try to escape because really there's nowhere else to go but here. I'm not even sure I believe in rebirth because I haven't had any insights confirming it. I know many who have had deep experiences so I'm open to it but need to experience it myself to know. I think a better goal is to end suffering. Can't deny suffering.. there is a reason that you're seeking OBEs and experiences and truth. You're dissatisfied with your current state, unhappy with life and how things are unfolding, and that is certainly suffering. To end that and be content is certainly a good goal to have, in my opinion, rather than something abstract like ending rebirth. I think suffering is so much more tangible. It's here, now, and undeniable.

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Mahamudra is not energy practice; it's shamata and vipashyana, concentration and investigation. By energy practice I mean that there is no controlling of energy or intention of doing anything with it, there's certainly awareness of it as it's a naturally arising phenomena when the mind relaxes and incorporates a wider and deeper lens of viewing what's already there. I should mention that I did a lot of Qi Gong and Kundalini work for a couple years and then gave it up. I'm sure that those causes had effects. When I met with Eternal Student and he gave me acupuncture, he told me that my energy just keeps wanting to go up. And this was just me sitting there half-asleep. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not, but I don't really worry about the rising. If it does, it does. I stopped doing all energy work and am now just doing mindfulness and investigation. I find energy naturally awakens this way but really isn't the goal of the practice. I think that the purpose of all spiritual traditions that aim for enlightenment is to, one way or another, dissolve energy into the central channel. I remember Tao Semko saying that this happens naturally if one does jhana (concentration). This 'central channel happening' can be forced (kundalini) or not. My opinion is that the safest way is to focus on wisdom rather than energy.

Excellent post Songs. For those who don't understand what is meant by 'ego' and think that having OBEs will 'get rid of your ego' -- the ego is the sense of self, the clinging to an I, the sense that 'I' am separate from everything else, that there is an inner something which I identify with and then there's the external beings or world which are related but are somehow different than I. Having such experiences may test the boundaries of the ego but ultimately there will just be identification with a more subtle body than the physical body. The illusion of the self has not been seen through and may actually create an even strong sense of self than before "Look at me, I'm so enlightened and spiritual because I can zip outta my head and talk to Zeus" If you're looking for a thrill and want to see what's out there, what may be more important to do is to just give it all up, surrender here and now, and be totally present and mindful of your experience as it arises. See all sensations as impermanent vibrations that come and ago. Reality is just a flow of vibrations that we believe are "out there" or "in here" but really they are neither. There's no such thing as "physical" reality or "astral realms" or anything of the like. There is only one reality with different states or lenses, so once you figure out the truth here and now, it applies to everything. No need to go anywhere for the truth. Just here and now, this moment. That's it.

Could you please share with us what he said and what you learned about what it's really used for?

You know what's a more dangerous attachment? The self. Fearing that some demon is going to steal your body or your soul. That's much more dangerous. Nobody can hurt who you truly are. Once you recognize your true nature, which is beyond any names, concepts, boundaries, then there is nothing to worry about. You only had that experience because you cling to self and fear arose. Should've radiated compassion and the demon (most likely just your subconscious projection) would've been pacified. Exploration without wisdom is dangerous because you can become even more deluded. Prime example of why I said earlier in this thread that OBE is just ego food.

Do you get that too? it's such a funny sensation. this morning my tongue kept crackling when I held it on the roof of the mouth, was tickling me too much actually lol. I dont' even practice kundalini or any energy practices. I used to but not anymore. Surprisingly I've been having serious results with Vipassana noting practice. To each their own path!

Depends what you mean by "work" and what their goals are. Most people don't actually want enlightenment so they don't properly apply the practices. There's nothing wrong with the practices I know many very realized beings who practice Vajrayana, Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Vipassana, and other serious methods. I think you hang out with the wrong crowd. Your friend needs a better teacher. Tell him to get in contact with the folks at Dharma Overground. Results are good, but what kind of results? Real results on the path are those of getting rid of delusion, having insights about your true nature, and letting go of false concepts and beliefs. Having fantastical journeys and talking to aliens is ego food and spiritual entrapment. There is no need to seek spiritual masters elsewhere. There are plenty here. There are SO many highly realized beings on Earth today, but they do not talk about OBEs or energy or anything of the like. They talk about no-self, nondual awareness and presence, compassion, and being here now (not in la-la land wishing for a noncorporeal being to tell you to study your own mind). Problem is, if you only hang out on forums like this or Astral Dynamics then will get this idea about spirituality being about energy and health and having wild experiences. That's a joke. All of that is just self-affirming fantasy. If you want to get real you'll start doing serious practices like vipassana and find a realized guide to help you. The Dharma Overground forum and Kenneth Folk's forum are both filled with people who are attaining real results and gaining true insights. Daniel Ingram is probably the first person who has went public with his experiences and insights and claimed enlightenment. This is a taboo thing in Buddhism and he thinks more enlightened people should go public to show that the methods work. He wasn't on the news though, nobody cares about this stuff. "HEADLINE: Meditator realizes the emptiness of all self and phenomena" lol

I was pondering earlier what the effects of exercise on subtle energy, both jing and qi, and awareness (awakeness, alertness). I know yoga and qi gong are great but I am referring specifically to weight resistance and cardio. For those who are in-tune with themselves and have done regular exercise, have you noticed changes in your energy and awareness? Were these changes beneficial? Harmful?

Why do you say that Vipassana must be practiced in a retreat environment? I really want to do a retreat and I know that they are very helpful, Daniel Ingram really recommends them but also says that daily practice is good too. BTW how does standing practice help with vipassana? I used to do standing a while ago but didn't do much for me except calm the mind.. not sure what it does physically.. I just started doing yoga again and maybe will start doing standing (I just do wuji, is zhan zhuang better?)

What's the point? just more stories for the ego to get involved with. There is a reason that serious spiritual traditions don't even bother with this stuff.

I prefer hugging trees well actually today I walked through a park and there's a path that runs along a lake and you're surrounded by trees the whole time It's a wonderful place and I feel really calm + grounded after being there.

ralis, Many people here, including I, come to discuss interesting ideas. When you post your bitter (and yes they are indeed bitter, hostile, and argumentative, not "matter of fact" as you claim), you suck other people into your bitterness and bring the quality of the thread down. You inspire negativity in others. Is that what you want? Are you a negative energy vampire or something? Your behavior just does not seem healthy. Let's take this thread for example. You jump in right away with "Vajraji is always talking about the Buddha conversing with aliens." And then, when Vajra did not take your bait, you attacked him again with "You own Norbu? You write as if he is your property. Many such as yourself have projected neediness and seeing him as mommy and daddy" And then of course Vajra felt the need to respond and you got what you wanted. You blatantly have a personal vendetta against Vajrahridaya. I would surmise that 70% of your total posts are directed towards him. It's fine to disagree but, wow man.. does that sound healthy to you? Sounds rather obsessive. I thought you were taking a break from posting anyway? Maybe that's exactly what you need, man. Just relax a bit.. have a beer, hug some trees, whatever it takes.