balance.

Aaron: Allow me to better articulate myself here..... ..... It's not sex itself that I see as being something that must be given up at very high levels, but rather the lust and desire that are associated with an attachment to material and sensual pleasure... And that is the "demon" that I was referring to in my first paragraph... That lingering attachment to some of the more attractive baubles within samsara that persist despite commendable spiritual/energetic progress. For my own part, I see sex at those high levels, divorced from the baser motivating/characterizing emotions of lust and desire as something that while enacted through physical means, finds full expression in terms of the union of energy and spirit. Sex for me now, even though I may make use of energetic means to prolong the act and attempt to amplify the pleasure of my lover is still very much grounded in raw physicality.. But I think as we progress, the lines between the material and the immaterial must blur, and we must actively embrace the intangible in order to move closer to the Mystery... Till then, I think we're given free reign to make use of the training-wheels that help us progress while easing that eventual transition into a place where there can be no aides.. That is my conceptual understanding for the necessity of letting go of the very known/knowable things to us like desire and lust and sensual pleasure.... the familiar becomes a handhold and an anchor that makes it easier to maintain our death grip on the material... If there's nothing for us to hold onto, that decision to let go and take our hands off the steering wheel is made easier. ....I'm really just speculating on much of this endgame material based on what I think I've come to know, so take it all with a grain of salt... I've many many years ahead of me to allow for conceptual understanding to give way to experiential understanding.. Until then, this sort of speculation is nothing but an interesting diversion from practice....... But what I do know is that these sorts of "dramatic" changes/shifts will occur naturally and without force. balance.

I think Twinner brings up a really important point with regards to the popular conception of the enlightened personality.... That of enlightenment bringing with it an absence of human emotion and feeling. I'll see if I can dig up the quote properly here (I believe it's within Huai-Chin Nans "Tao and Longevity"), but the thrust of the quote involves the authors observation that many enlightened and high level practitioners still have a "demon" within them... The "demon" being sexual lust/desire. We can also look at figures like Chogyam Trungpa (A notorious womanizer) and the more legendary Lu Dongbin who still retain some of these very human characteristics although they are associated with very high levels of cultivation.. So it seems that the various paths don't neutralize these tendencies, but they do make them easier for us to understand and then move beyond.... But we cannot move beyond or let go of something that we are too afraid to confront. Speaking for myself, I don't see sex or ones own sexuality as something that should be suppressed and stifled. As Cat and others have pointed out, the very act of repression yields contradictory results-- that of giving strength to the desire or thought instead of nullifying it as we had initially intended. The vast canons of sexual literature that exist within taoism (and elsewhere) speak to the potential and necessity that was seen within sex for both spiritual and physical growth. For me, a huge aspect of practice has been about experiencing and understanding these binary relationships to be connected and one... Seeing the union of heaven and earth in us and in all things seems to be critical for advancement along our own paths.... To me, it seems bizarre that in seeking to understand oneness we can be so picky and selective in those things that we choose to express and experience...... How can we find union within ourselves if there is always perceived mutiny afoot? ... seems to me that we compulsively create problems for ourselves when no problem actually existed.. Bringing these things into the light of understanding/awareness gives us the ability to decide what to do with them. The meager amounts of aptitude I've gained with the control of my own desires and lusts began to come only when I stopped trying to control them and tried instead to understand their root causes... This return to the root isnt some sort of conceptual framework I've set up to better make sense of my baser tendencies, nor a system that I've devised that's allowed me to bypass contact with the fairer sex, but rather just a devotion to my daily practices, and the subsequent cultivation of a calmer, steadier mind. I've learned to accept my sexual urges and desires as something natural and human and I've found ways to go about expressing them in healthy, disciplined and balanced ways... The sexual literature is there to be coupled with a mind tempered/relaxed/mellowed by regular meditative work so that you can get your lovin-groove on and still advance along the path... To cast aside something we fear and don't fully understand is an easy way to make things much harder on ourselves because then we are only ever just making more internal structures that hinder smooth and streamlined progress... For how can we expect to glean any deeper understanding if we can't even bring ourselves to shine a light into those happily forgotten and boarded-up coves within our own bodies? How can we walk a harmonious path if denial keeps us from seeing one half of the whole? For me, sex, practiced in a healthy, balanced and loving manner has been an enormous boon... And sure, I still pounce upon my lady while hot with lust and desire, and even occasionally give into exquisite pleasure instead of minding my breath and my lover, but it is worth it... To experience that bond and realize that union... but indulging in sex also gives us an opportunity, as Trunk points out, to experience the yin curve of our own sexuality... It needn't be all or nothing.. We can find harmony and balance, and it seems to me that we owe it to ourselves to do so-- to be able to act harmoniously in all that we do... is that not wu-wei? We are humans, and I think its important to experience fully these very human things... If only so that accrued experience eventually leads to the understanding that allows us to effortlessly and naturally let go of them without the use of artificial internal/conceptual structures.... I do think that a complete letting go is necessary at the highest levels.. but simply writing sex and its associated baggage off and hiding from them as we meditate and hope to make progress seems close-minded and foolhardy to me... As spiritual voyagers, we aim to confront the unknown with open-minds and open-hearts.... and keeping our insecurities and fears at arms length will always keep us an arms length from that deeper understanding. balance.

Biopiracy - the Plunder of Nature and Knowledge -- Vandana Shiva The Heart of Understanding - Thich Nhat Hanh Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? - Philip K. Dick

I'll be sure to save the date.

I'll offer up only that I experienced a few nocturnal emissions when I'd first set out on the road towards extended retention... but that disappeared after 2-3 weeks of grinding and integrating. So, based on that, it seems that my system may have been adjusting to the initial increase in sexual energy and tried to release to balance itself back out to what it had been used to operating on for... years...... but once I was able to get past that trial period, then it seems like my body began to adjust to that heightened level and stopped trying to release during the night.. .. So seems like it could be based on an imbalance, but I really can't say for sure... I just know that it was an issue at first, but it's become a non-issue as I've continued retaining. balance.

I'd say that of course you shouldn't force the significant other to cultivate... In my experience, by just allowing the times you spend with your lover to reflect the work you are doing in your practices provides powerful incentive for the dipping of toes.. In terms of dual-cultivation... The more energetically dependent exercises definitely require both parties to be on the level... ..... but that doesn't at all mean that you can't begin to transform simple sex into something much more by bringing taoist attitudes and practices to bear... Perhaps this is easier initially when it's the male whose the only cultivator in a relationship (as I am), as just basic aptitude of ejaculation control begins to allow for the inclusion of much, much more... By demonstrating how thinking about and practicing sex differently can allow for a much greater range, length and variety of pleasure, you give your lover incentive to begin pursuing some of the basic practices themselves that lead naturally to intimate expression. And, speaking outside of esoterics, just brushing up on and changing basic sex technique in general can transform a rather dull love-life into something far more interesting and satisfying... like breaking out of your preferred cycle of positions and expanding the variety there... and also digesting books like She Comes First and integrating them into your own lovin groove ... But I think the most important ingredient for me has just been realizing that the pleasure of your partner is more important than your own.. Or rather, it's much better to give than to receive.. with the bedrock provided by that ideal framing your actions, everything changes. -- Ron Jeremy. Far better to go with the magic. balance.

It was always my sense that the taoists developed their methods so that they could integrate their more base desires into a system/world-view that allowed them to have their cake and eat it too... You don't hear taoists saying that the body should be denied or that emotions should be stifled... These are things that need to be worked with and balanced, not cut off, forsaken and denied... I've always thought our personal problems are things we needed to come face to face with as opposed to just holding them at arms length, thinking we're making progress... I think we need to embrace the things in ourselves that we fear, detest and fret over the most instead of setting up a quarantine... How else are we to make changes for the positive if not through the pursuit of unity and acceptance? Sex is natural and beautiful, and when practiced in the right way with the proper state of mind, it is balancing, energizing and uplifting... Not to mention that you and your lover have an opportunity to embody and express the unity of heaven and earth.... Why would you want to deny yourself this? Few things have the potential to be so beautiful. ... and as Sloppy pointed out, you can indeed be addicted to anything... Even things that are considered to be healthy and beneficial can begin to fuck with you if you don't exercise moderation... Even cultivation can be pursued with so singular a mind that we loose track of the important things going on within this sphere... We run the risk of ostracizing friends, family, and lovers by living only on our zafus... As much as meditation can open you up, it blows my mind how easy it is to forsake everything else.... eventually we may find ourselves completely alone (see the thread on the hazards of cultivation) if we don't risk embellishing our impulses from time to time, and always shy away from intimacy because we worry more about our retention practices than forging connections with another human... You can talk on and on about resisting the baubles of this world because buddha said this and that.. but what it comes down to is that if you are always resisting these things, and not letting go of them, then your worse off than you were before. If you are always choking down your cravings as opposed to either letting them express themselves or just allowing them to pass through you, then you're causing yourself problems... If retention can't be integrated healthily into an individuals lifestyle, then it shouldn't be done at all. If you're gritting your teeth and chomping at the bit the entire time you're bottling up your essence, then thing are going to get rough... And from where I'm standing, Non, (and forgive me for saying as I could be entirely wrong) you really don't seem to be taking the extended celibacy grind particularly well... So maybe consider allowing yourself to indulge in some release... You may find it surprisingly balancing... When our actions are in balance, we will always be moving forward... When we choose instead to court excess and deficit, we will always find ourselves running into problems.. if retaining doesn't make you feel good.... you oughta consider pulling the plug. I wish you all the best, Non, truly.. and again, I apologize if my assessment of your behavior was wrong.. Passing judgment on folk based solely on their taobums posts is a risky and inaccurate business. best. balance.

Haha-- you had me scratching my head, wondering just how the hell I could have glanced over Dr. Yang expounding on the finer points of sexual practice and dual cultivation in those books It'd certainly be something though if he were to put out a book on such a topic... Ahh well.. balance.

Those are indeed good books... but for dual-cultivation and esoteric, artful lovin? John C: Definitely look into Douglas and Slingers "Sexual Secrets: The Alchemy of Ecstasy" .. There was a blurb about it in one of Dr. Morris' books.. awfully happy I tracked it down as it doesn't disappoint... A ton of information in there... Highly recommended.... and did I mention that its lavishly illustrated too? ...and I can't speak on Sexual Alchemy for Couples (Though I'm downloading it right now ), but I have found Chia's "The Multi-Orgasmic Couple" to be beneficial, though I wish it went into greater technical depth with regards to the actual alchemy... It seems to be a bit more plain-spoken and technique-based.. Not that that's a bad thing, but it just left me wanting more. Nonetheless, I continue to find it helpful and would suggest you give it a go if Sexual Alchemy for Couples doesn't seem comprehensive enough... Though the two combined may be great... So you'll have to let me know how the book goes down, as it was only the dvd I was able to find online.. Pity. best. balance.

Interesting--- I've never considered blessing my meals.. But it sounds like a good habit to get into. on the topic of tea, I prefer Rishi (www.rishi-tea.com).... Tremendous loose-leaf varieties... But I hear you mention tea quite a bit, so I'm curious where you secure yours? balance.

Since beginning cultivation, I've made note of both a desire to eat less and a desire to eat well. Though I've never been one for junk food binges, cultivating has made the moderate consumption of all things good and wholesome to seem both obvious and proper... Vegetables constitute a far greater amount of my intake than before... I think, for me anyway, cultivating has made me really enjoy some of these dishes that I would've only eaten before because they were healthy.. It just feels right. In terms of meals... Breakfast and dinner probably constitute my only big/full meals... Mostly I prefer to snack here and there... I like the feeling that comes from stopping eating before your full... Whats that old adage? Eat till your 80% full because the last 20% sustains the doctor? Anyway, instead of feeling heavy, I'll feel light and content and alert. In terms of how much I eat at breakfast and dinner, that largely depends on how I'm feeling and what I expended physically/energetically during the day... If I'm preparing for a particularly harrowing day, I'll up the portion size at breakfast... That goes for bigger meals at night too if I'm expecting the next day to be demanding physically... Front-loading... But I still won't gorge myself.. I'll just move a bit past my comfort zone. I think it's safe to say that my "rhythm" of eating is defined largely by my practices... In the morning, I'll eat after I've done my routines.... and same thing at night... I'm sure most here will agree cultivating on a full stomach is distracting... But if I'm too hungry before practice, I will throw something down the hatch.. a small snack.. Just enough to take the edge off any distracting indications of hunger.. Fruit seems to do the trick. ... Seems to me less eating is just a side-effect of practice... I'm sure retention factors into that, as well as the body just operating more efficiently... More energy in general.. I also feel that deep belly breathing plays a big part in how much your getting out of the food and how well it all gets digested... But that could be complete malarchy I can't yet comment about changes in middle age. best. balance. * I should note that I was initially concerned about decreases in my food consumption, because I do maintain a very active existence, and I'd been accustomed to sustaining myself with athlete-sized portions... But I didn't wither away or turn into a skeleton (although I did loose some weight), nor find myself unable to continue maintaining my usual physical routines because of less fuel.... I think the important thing here is that I wasn't actively cutting back, but just rolling with the wave of natural change and internal inclination...

Don't mention it There should be pretty extensive threads on each of those practices already in the taobums archives... So, you'd do well to run a search on any of the practices you have questions about. There is some really good information hiding here and there. balance.

The links to Jenny's site within this post actually provided me with my first opportunity to "hear" her speak.... ... and I've come away with much the same sentiment/feeling as you, Creation. best. balance.

Mm, I neglected to include Stillness-Movement as one of the practices seen more regularly here... (www.stilnessmovement.com) .... The teacher, Michael Lomax, is also a tao bum... "Ya Mu" balance.

The philosophies are certainly invaluable... But I think it's important to jump in and start practicing so that you can begin to develop your own, experiential lens. Have you started looking at various paths yet? While there are many many out there, the three that seem to attract the most attention here are Spring Forest Qiqong (www.springforestqiqong.com) / Kundalini Awakening Process (www.kundaliniawakeningprocess.com) and Kunlun (www.kunlunbliss.com) All are suited towards different temperaments, but all are effective in their own right... I think it's important to experiment and test the waters initially to see what feels best to you... but eventually, you'll have to commit to really make progress. ... and there is also of course simple meditation... Something along the lines of shikan-taza or vipassana.... Both are powerful, simple, and considered paths themselves... But they can also provide valuable assistance to more energetic paths like those mentioned above.... Explore. best. balance.

Some members have pointed out that the necessary addition of all that tension in movements like the powerlock only serve to further encourage ejaculation rather than diminish it. Try not allowing yourself to get so close to the edge... Really relax... Breath deeply and slowly into your abdomen... Try to get a rhythm going with your breath.. Super helpful to have the breathing timed with thrusting etc but it's not always easy to find synchronicity... Be aware of unnecessary muscle tension... And Relax relax relax relax.... .... and the s.biels method is terrific... I've found keeping this technique going throughout and then inserting the big draw occasionally keeps me cool and calm... The above method is also best down while relaxed and open, as opposed to the powerlock which would have you.... lock up. best. balance.

The rather heavy-handed approach with regards to the marketing/advertising of kunlun has been brought up before many times... No reason for this thread to suffer a similar fate. Feel free to read through this longer thread when kunlun was just coming onto the tb scene... http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/3570-lama-dorje/page__hl__lama ...That said, I think the quality of Kunlun (as with everything) is best expressed through the personal experience of its practices rather than the nit-picking of potentially-flawed, superficial/packaging details which end up being totally irrelevant anyway. best. balance.

Ha, I find the name a bit much myself... But my understanding is that it has to do with some of his back-story... ie being struck by lightning when he was young and having his third eye fused open. best. balance.

Sifusufi: Check out this link... www.lamathunderbolt.com .... Seems to me it was supposed to be released some time ago.... No idea what happened. Nice preview all the same though And thank you for the link, Mrs. Meow... Always a pleasure hearing from Kan. best. balance.

..Reminds me of a something Andy Warhol said.... "I never read my reviews, I only measure them with a ruler." In terms of the actual rating system, if it was indeed decided that it would remain operative, what if the names of those who decide to cast a vote we're displayed by the respective post? It seems to me that such a step would make those inclined to throw stones from behind a wall might second guess picking up the rock in the first place... More accountability and responsibility. ... otherwise, it's already clear that there are those unable to restrain themselves within the parameters laid out by the current system. That said, I do see benefits possible in terms of the archiving of posts of note... but it seems that there must be a better way of going about it that doesn't begin to involve the senseless pursuit of high reputation or the denigration of a particular individual whose beliefs may run so contrary to another member. We here are supposed to have open minds and open hearts. But there are also those who sling about cruel remarks that go well beyond simple and necessary disagreement with such regularity that having a rating system might encourage such callous individuals to refrain from familiar action. .... There seems also something to be said for such rabble-rousers, though. I feel like they can be helpful in so far as mixing things up... So, I'm all over the place with the rating system... If it is to stay, I think we should have a display by the post that shows who has cast a vote. I think we should be held accountable. ..... but it does seem easier to revert back... Seems to me that people have done a good job in the past of ignoring those who consistently enough had nothing of value to add... I think it's also important to keep in mind that both the good and the bad comprise the whole. balance.

Not to stray too far from the topic at hand... .... but I see this "return" as intrinsically attached to the idea of Effortlessness... .. with all the habits and thought processes that we've accumulated since birth as being things that require effort and thus separate us further from that unadulterated state... ...Effortlessness, for me, indicates a state/frame of mind where we achieve and accomplish everything by not doing anything extra/"unnatural" .. .... Yoda's great "There is no try" figures in here somewhere as well... Turn off the mind and do. In terms of celibacy, you're absolutely right... Balance ought to be maintained. But I don't take celibacy to mean abstaining from sex, but just abstaining from ejaculation.. Also, being in a relationship doesn't do much in terms of discouraging such physical expressions... An important component here is the balancing of yin/yang that occurs between the opposing sexes that is absent from straight up masturbation... So sex, practiced intelligently does have its benefits. I'm no super-human (yet) , so I of course do slip up from time to time... but I found once I'd devoted myself to some substantial stretches of integrated retention that it was the only thing that really made sense to me... Those are the sorts of things that you need to decide for yourself after you've experienced what can result, good and bad, from dedicated, extended and wisely-practiced retention. You'll also find trains of thought that follow more exactly the idea of "celibacy" and seek to move beyond all physical/mundane/humanely desire... I've heard many different reasons for this beyond the obvious that these are things, depending on how far we want to take the path, that we must let go of as they keep us planted in samsara.. But the other one that comes to mind says that stimulation and unchecked desire divert energy away from other centers in order to produce sexual fluid... I'm not at a point where this matters to me particularly, though it's good to consider. It's also good to consider that there are paths that utilize sexual/ecstatic energy in the road to realization. So, my experience thus far says the only wrong paths are those that don't work for you... Cast your net, sample the catch, and cast again if you don't find yourself satisfied with the offerings of a particular location... Learn to listen to and trust your heart. best. balance.

Mm, thanks for the drop, Cow. .. I'll be sure to check it out once I see a break in the clouds. balance.

While I do generally agree that age is a peculiar thing to concern yourself with, many Taoists in pursuit of the ways and means of immortality would be very interested with age.. Especially if someone were to say they were pushing 150 or some other advanced age that might indicate proper cultivation methods if earthly immortality was the end you had in mind for yourself. And as Bill Porter says in Road to Heaven, "You don't joke about age with a Taoist." balance.

Mm. I'm happy to hear that you've cut that cancerous umbilical. ... I wish you all the best and I hope a new, freer space to practice well begin to clear your internal horizons. godspeed. balance.