devoid

Probably because my account wasn't set up only a few days ago (10-Nov-2010) But now that you brought it up I would love to hear who got barred just before that or to know who of our fellow members decided that he or she needed a cover account to support their own views...? I can certainly see how that is a convenient way to support the ego and circumvent the rules

I have spent quite some time pondering Yin and Yang - to me the symbol is - well, just a symbol. But the underlying concept is what is really important: Yin and Yang tells us about polarizations of forces on any one-dimensional level. The examples are many: Within martial arts Being weighted or not Vertical motion (up or down) Horizontal motion (left or right) Relative to the body (to or from) Within integers The Natural Numbers vs. their negatives One number relative to another With drinking coffee (or tea if that's your preference) The quality (inferior or superior) The strength (weaker or stronger) The temperature (colder or hotter) (too) often it is said that yin and yang are mainly opposites. While that is of course a true statement the true understanding only comes from being comfortable with applying the yin and yang philosophy to any one-dimensional level.

TianShi, Just because a group of members raise their opinions loudly doesn't mean that it is representative of the Forum (or of the non-moderator members of the forum, for that matter). As an example I am no moderator, yet I am in disagreement with the general picture you paint of TTB moderator members vs. TTB regular members.

Hi ralis, I want to say that I for one think the moderators are adding a lot of value by trying their best to ensure that we adhere to thetaobum's set of guidelines on etiquette and behavior on this site. I am grateful for their services, which are even unpaid other than in kind. To put forum moderation into perspective, on other sites you constantly see people getting bullied and run over just because their opinion differs from those louder than themselves. Although perhaps a symbolic encroachment, I don't see how that's necessarily an insult to free speech - not moderating is certainly an insult to those being bullied. Back to the question of personal vanity: Why me? is always the question most central to the ego: I don't know (as I am not a moderator) - I don't know why you were given time out and frankly speaking I don't want to know either. What I do think is nice however, is that if one is given time out one may still come back to contribute instead of having been barred for good. As such, it's good to have you back on board (even if all we may be able to agree on is to disagree )

Hi Alfred, (Note: I take it that you meant Philosophy when writing 'Plosophy') Good question - obviously it is not always black or white, but in trying to generalize I would say that religion is a set of beliefs whereas philosophy (or love of wisdom) is a study. So, I guess that if you accept somebody's else's philosophy without studying and questioning it on your own you're easily back to the premise of religion as you will treat it as a set of beliefs which you choose not to (or may not be willing to) question.

Welcome Greenback - glad you made the plunge! ...always room for one more

Hi sykkelpump (= bicycle pump in Scandinavian?) I think you're in the wrong forum, Buddy. Try one of the IMA sites where you can find lots of the 'just-wack-em-hard' crowd to cheer in.

Hi mYTHmAKER, I do study it. This said, I am not sure this is the recommendation you're looking for though.... There are so very many styles of Baguazhang - pls. recall that Dong Haichuan who is credited as the creator taught some techniques to very different top martial artists at the time who in turn incorporated it into their own style / flavor of doing things. Thus, if you take classes, almost any book on Bagua is not likely to help (unless if you're training with a teacher of a style which is described specifically in one of the books out there). If you don't take classes or similar I am of the opinion that no book can teach you this. Back to your initial question on palm positions: Take the much talked about 8 mother palms as an example: If you study some of the different circular lineages and add them together you will find approximately 15 or so (keeping in mind that each circular style predominantly sticks to 8 in order to remain true to the idea of the 8 trigrams) - other styles and linages do things differently and may talk about 64 although they are typically rather sub-forms than cardinally different palms. Here's my experience for you: When I wanted to start Baguazhang I found a good teacher after trying in vain to read some books (you may be interested to hear that I've been through most books mentioned in this thread plus some more). He told me to start with Xingyiquan before he would teach me Baguazhang. His thinking was that if I couldn't first do a much simpler linear form to some adequate degree it would be pointless. At the time, I recall thinking that was weird, but decided to heed his advice. About a year into Xingyquan I was allowed to start cross-training with Baguazhang and since then I can see his point: There is simply too much going on at the same time in order to have a chance to get things right when learning from scratch unless if you just want to use it to bounce around...

Excellent! Thank you very much for sharing this, Giano.

Hi Surfingbudda, I don't think there's Taoist view on alcohol which could be chiseled out in stone. However, here are some observations stemming from Taoist philosophy which you may find useful: Alcohol is predominantly yang (relative to no alcohol - in this case predominantly yin) - as with all things a balance must be found. Alcohol clouds the mind - thus making it a distraction in cultivation of any form (e.g. alchemy, meditation, gong fu, etc.) Remember that there's a quasi-balance in almost everything already without alcohol, thus moderation would probably be important in an attempted generalized view. GamBei!

Hi Friends, While trying to come to terms with the connection between Baguazhang (the martial arts) the I-Ching (the Book of Changes) I have noticed that the opinions of different masters vary greatly. Obviously, not everybody sees it black or white, but to get the discussion started I present the two generally opposing views which I have come across: Baguazhang and the I-Ching have very little to do with each other and should be studied as two separate subjects. Baguazhang and the I-Ching are very closesly interrelated and should be studied closely together. I have not fully made up my mind yet, although I have a tendency. I am hopeful that we can have an interesting discussion stemming from this poll and discussion thread.

Here's a view quite opposed to the concept of connecting traditional Chinese literature with IMA (Although it is about Tai Ji philosophy vs. Taijiquan I believe one can confidently extend the argument to also covering the discussion of Ba Gua philosophy vs. Baguazhang). The following quote by Master Gabriel Chin is taken from a section in which he advocates avoiding trying to link Taijiquan with classics such as the I-Ching and the Tao Te Ching:

Here's a view which I would consider fairly secular about it - indirectly, the view that there is a correlation and connection is made clear, yet it is also stated explicitly that one needs to approach them as individual topics:

Thanks Xakarii, I have not yet read Jon Tsung-Hwa's books. I would be interested to understand if he get's specific about it or just stays with the old introducing of the subset (8/64) of the eight double hexagrams and then forgets to tell you in greater detail what the correlation is with the remaining 56 Hexagrams of the I-Ching? Optimally, I would love to see a synopsis, like e.g. I-Ching number | Hexagram | Translation of Hexagram Meaning | Interpretation related to IMA -i.e. at least one comment for each of the 64 Hexagrams. The proponents for studying IMA and I-Ching together which I have come across have not gone to such detail at all, which continues to leave me puzzled... I try to will post a few more views (from both camps) in some additional posts.

I agree: Stephen Hwa DVDs are really good - quite unlike anything I have seen before and full of essence. Yet, perhaps starting out from scratch with a full 108 form Taiji may be more than you'd want to bargain for in having a sniff at it. Thus, I suggest starting with getting Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body - it is quite straightforward to follow and once you've read through it a couple of times and practiced daily for a few months you'll probably develop your own feel for what is right for you to do next.

I think your question is very valid (even if we allow for the rephrased version suggested in this thread ) I.e. how can one return to the source as well as exist as an immortal and indirectly: Does one exclude the other? I have been playing around with a theory of virtualization for some time: Yes, pretty much like with computers. Take a back-up at some given point and install it on different (virtual) machines and after that let them lead their separate or semi-seperate ways. One 'copy' merges with the Tao - another 'copy' co-existing in some Astral plane, etc. I can see if it sounds weird, but I want to make an end-note that Robert Bruce talks about something similar in what he coined the mind-split effect in OBE / Astral Travel. Back to the purpose of TTB: Taoists traditionally also have the concept of spawning different different processes; a key example is the spiritual embryo from Taoist Alchemy. I also seem to recall something similar from a passage in Opening the Dragon Gate: The Making of a Modern Tao Wizard in which Master Wang Liping spawns seven processes or so at once while visiting some poor, secluded village during the cultural revolution in China.

Hi Sean, Thanks for the great interview with Chunyi Lin - what a great idea to continue interviewing contemporary masters this way for the benefit of us all! Bruce Frantzis has a few landmarks in his teachings which are only alluded to in limited detail in his books: 1. The 16-part nei gong system 2. The connection between Baguazhang and the I-Ching** My question is if would be possible for Bruce Frantzis to elaborate some more on the above points? **NB I happened to post a poll on this morning http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/16144-connecting-baguazhang-and-the-i-ching/ in case anybody is interested in having a go

Hi Friends, Sorry in advance if this starting post gets a bit long or too philosophical... As the topic suggests: I have been pondering upon this for some time and thought I would ask for your thoughts and ideas. Probably, we first need to agree on what we mean when we talk about an immortal: To me, an immortal is somebody who used to walk the face of the earth in a human body until death, but in which case the spirit and to some extent the will power of this person remained fairly intact since death and did not since: recycle into the Tao enter a new physical body through some sort of rebirth Such an immortal would be likely to be much a stronger spirit and guide than other spirits (i.e. non-immortal, common dead people, if you like). Over time I suppose the immortal would probably learn to influence events in accordance with cause and effect. At least more so than the average person in transit from life back to the tao (or to some intermediate congregation before returning to the tao or earth). I suppose possible intermediate congregations could even be those lead by some immortal, such as e.g. Laozi, Buddha, Jesus, or whomever the new person joining the congregation would feel was the answer to their calling while alive. Now, if the above where to be the case, surely immortals can be thought of as deities or even gods (with gods, I use the plural as I can't really see how a monotheistic god would make sense in a taoist model) although I speculate that an immortal like Jesus might help a good Christian even if there was no such thing as a monotheistic god. So, with these words I hope to have started an interesting discussion. I apologize in advance if I have offended or upset anyone - I want to say up front that this is not my intention.

I think there are quite some misunderstandings and possibly misconceptions in the thread that I would like to help to try to clarify. Newtonian physics is a great thing. There's nothing wrong with it when constricted to our daily environment, in which it is very accurate. It can be used to discuss pretty much anything of enough physical substance to hold and feel in your hand. Basically, Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation tells us that two objects are attracted to each other and a consequence of it is that the greater the masses of the objects, and the shorter the distance between them, the stronger the gravitational pull will be. It also has the advantage that the formulas are simply enough to be used to teach 7-graders to use them. OK - enough about Newtonian mechanics - back to the thread: So, the argument is that while Newtonian physics hold true for practical purposes in our physical touch+feel environment, this turns out not to hold universally true, after all. So let's look at what Einstein said: If two objects are moving towards or away from each other they cannot do this faster than the speed of light. Furthermore, if two objects are are travelling together on some vehicle at the speed of light, you cannot accelerate one of them go even faster. While this is really interesting when looking at what light is made out of (i.e. photons) which mindbogglingly hold hold the properties of being particles of mass as well as waves of energy while in motion (and in isolation) - this tells us that that Newtonian physics don't hold at this very marginal level (i.e. particles of almost infinitely small mass and which travel at close to the speed of light). For such extremities we have quantum mechanics. (The following is what I remember from a Uni course in quantum mechanics many years ago: you will have to forgive me for any inaccuracies). This can lead to a bunch of cool stuff, such as e.g. "quantum teleportation" which involves giving a photon a spin and then physically splitting the wave form of the photon - and after having taken the parts away from each other (and assuming you have managed to maintain their state undisturbed) then the following happens when you try to measure (and thereby stop) the one half: the other one also stops or disappears at the same instant and if measured at the exact same time it would have maintained the same spin. Please notice that these are properties of photons and similarly small particles which prefer to travel at close to the speed of light in a vacuum. In other words, it does not apply to humans, tangible objects, etc. (Somehow, this important additional fact is typically neglected conveniently in a lot science fiction stories ) To play around with the basic ideas of quantum mechanics (in a meaningful way) one needs to master mathematical tools which require maths / physics of at least university undergrad course level - things that you cannot easily teach your average 7th grader or even your average college student. I therefore suggest telling your kids Newtonian physics work great for almost all practical purposes and that quantum mechanics (which require a very deep mathematical understanding) rule things once we get into looking at the little pieces that make up atoms, light, etc. At least, that's what I tell my kids I'll be happy to suggest few titles on Quantum Mechanics if anybody's interested.

Hi Xian, Thanks for this post. (Please excuse me, but I am not familiar with the Chinese words you used and therefore prefer to ask for clarity:) With Yuanying you mean the cultivation of the spiritual embryo / immortal fetus, right? And with Yuanshen you refer to the enlightened spirit which can exist in either vessels, i.e. in both the physical body as well as in the spiritual embryo / immortal fetus, right? I think I am beginning to see your point about this being a prerequisite exclusively to immortality in the taoist sense. Best regards, devoid

I never thought of it this way before - how very true - thanks for posting this clarifying follow-up!

Hi Kate and apepch7, Thanks for clarifying the awareness vs. consciousness for me.

Hi Xian, So, in your definition, I understand that immortals and deities are different because they represent the result of different cultivation paths (implying different values, practices, etc.). Therefore there must be a difference in their types of enlightenment. Thanks for clarifying this. I am still somehow caught up with the inherently taoist principle that there are many (different) ways leading to the tao. But, I guess, in the light of what you said we need to consider that there can be many forms of enlightenment even if there is only one tao. I find this interesting and good food for thought.

Hi Kate, Thanks for posting this. I guess this is at the core of where I was coming from in my initial post: I.e. regardless of whether one is receiving help or guidance from an immortal, a deity, or a god, what's really the difference and does it matter? (assuming, of course, that ones motivations are pure, should intent be involved..) Universal Consciousness: I guess that's a New Age term for talking about an aspect of the tao - i.e. the aspect of knowledge within the tao?

Hi apepch7, I guess that you are saying that there can be no immortality except within eternity? But how would that correspond to the taoist concept that everything comes from one, only to eventually return to one? (doesn't that defeat the concept of eternity?)