devoid

Hi Xian, I am not sure I got this. Did Buddha not reached enlightenment, like a taoist? Perhaps one could argue that Jesus had some nepotist predisposition to becoming enlightened, but I guess that would require the acceptance of a monotheistic god. Thus, in a taoist sense (regardless of whether according to Marblehead's definition or the definition I attempted to post initially) I still think that we can consider both immortals. If not, I think we would need an different definition of what an immortal is?

Hi Cowtao, Your stinging sarcasm really made me laugh I agree that one needs to keep an eye out not to get caught up in the materialistic. I would even advise not get caught up in formalism, but probably that's a different discussion altogether... I read between the lines in your post that within taoism one should stick to immortals and the tao and then leave it at that. I think that's a valid statement.

In this thread, BK Frantzis is mentioned a number of times. I too, am very impressed with his work: 'Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body'. In fact, it got me so excited that I wanted to learn more from him. However, for every next book of his I read, I got more and more disappointed. I didn't get disappointed about anything from the first book, but what put me off was the fact that I didn't find any new teachings in his next books other than: restating what had already been said, buy the next, buy the course, etc. Eventually, after having read pretty much all his books I decided that my path into martial arts, meditation and spirituality would be another way than through his program. As such I am very thankful for the information I learned from 'Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body' - it will teach you stillness breathing, IMA postures (important for IMA, qigong and standing meditation) as well as a few practical exercises. It will even outline a fantastic 16-part neigong system (which, unfortunately, you will not find more information on in any of his other other books). As such, 'Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body' was transformational for me in that it became a starting point in a long and ongoing journey. To paraphrase Laozi I would like to end off with this statement which I can wholeheartedly subscribe to: The shortest path to the goal may well be what initially appeared to be the longest.

Yes, very much so: I will use any material available to help me out: I used meridian charts (I even used different ones in order to triangulate), I used western anatomy - both maps and descriptions, etc. For me, the name of the game is to make the most out of it from what I can gather, whether coming from the east, the west, from myself or even martial arts. On a side-note: be careful not to get caught up in meridians only - there's so much more to the body than that. Obviously, skin and bones. Tendons, legiments, etc. as well. But very, very importantly: Your brain regulates your organs through physical impulses and signals sent through your central nervous system. In its most rudimentary form, you may experience pain, prickling sensations, etc. - by all means, use every sensory input that your body provides you with - for this part you will need to tap into what you learned from meditation, i.e. stilling the mind and concentrating while relaxing (in a song way).

Well said, 3bob, Indeed, it does depend on ones own perspective on this. As you say, for any given immortals, deities or gods (and assuming they exist) it would ultimately have to depend on their individual evolution, i.e. born on Earth, somewhere else or even growing straight out of the Tao. I guess, from this point of view, one could classify immortals as having walked the earth in human form until death while deities or gods may have evolved through different paths. Or do you see it differently?

Hi Marblehead, I think your perspective is a very valid one. If not currently the one I subscribe the most to, it certainly was for a very long time - i.e. I guess one could coin it the agnostic and analytical approach. I also agree that any deviation from this path could only come from experience. As you say: Either we'll never really know or we'll only really know once we're dead If you'll let me I would like to check if I have understood this view (that neither immortals, deities, nor gods exist) properly, in the light of taoist literature: Since immortals are mentioned many times in various of "the classics", surely they do exist in Taoism - if nothing else, then simply because they are mentioned as a term. I guess in this sense, and from this view, the sheer passing on of their teachings - i.e. the passing on of what this person wrote, said or did makes them immortal in a philosophical sense. Have I understood that right?

Nice. Thanks for posting

Absolutely! You mentioned the liver as an example: it happens to be the one I've worked on most extensively. When I really concentrate on it I can tell you when my bile production increases, whether the pressure in the biliary system is going up or down, whether my liver is getting the signal from the brain to expand the cells (the cause of fatty liver) or when my Sphincter of Oddi [soD] opens and closes (SoD is the "valve" between the common bile duct from the liver / pancreas and the duodenum (connecting the stomach and the intestine). I initially started out with this to fix a condition I was having - you can find the article I wrote on it here: http://www.justalittleqi.com/choledocholithiasis-manual-fix.html (The article is more targetting the condition I was curing, but goes into detail on how I went about getting to know my liver). But in general, here's a brief summary of the strategy I used: 1. Stand relaxed / song (as e.g. described by BK Frantzis) and simply focus on the area you are interested. 2. Warm up / stimulate the appropriate meridians for the organ in question. 3. Go through the mind - start by looking "backwards", into the center of the head and then follow the spine down to the organ (more detail on this in my article) 4. (In order to increase the chance of success) Try to think of when the organ in question might be most active or how you can activate it through stimuli (especially relevant if looking at digestive organs). I wish you happy exploration of the physical micro cosmos! NB Some schools / texts will tell you about color (example: liver = green) or elements (example: liver = wood) or feelings (example: liver = anger, temperament, anxiety) etc - I tried that out too, but I must admit that this part didn't really do it for me. I am not saying it doesn't work, just that it was perhaps too abstract for me to use it for something tangible

Sounds like you have found one of these "mine is the best method" to me. Mind you, MCO (Microcosmic Orbit) is pretty much standard and thus you can find good descriptions in a lot of paperbacks for about 10 bucks which cover MCO plus a lot more. If you're interested in MCO only, all you need to do is ask and I am sure many of us will lend you a hand. I have come across a lot of descriptions of the MCO and they all say pretty much the same (although in different words): Essentially, there are two paths and three ways of doing MCO: The fire / wind path along the outside of the spine The water path inside the spine I also noted on the web page that you referred to that you will need to buy another course to get a description of the macrocosmic orbit.... Sounds like you already made up your mind that it is right for you, though. So, please feel free to correct me once they let you in on their "secret". NB I'll be happy to recommend some good reads covering both orbits and more if you're interested.

Hi Andy, Here are things I recommend looking for in a good teacher: Does the teacher act professionally and with integrity (i.e. does he take his own medicine and do you feel you can rest assured that he doesn't get a kick out of throwing inferior people around needlessly)? Does the teacher correct your posture by encouraging slightly bent limbs, a straight back and tell you to have your tongue touch your palate? (If you're very new to this) does your teacher seem to pay attention to detail in a way that might seem slightly pedantic or fussy? If you can answer yes to most of the above, you've got a good teacher (you might need to go there a couple of times before you can really tell, but try analyse your gut feeling and then test it / look out for further signs on your next visit). My teacher also tells us not to focus on qi and instead tells us to concentrate on getting everything about our posture, technique and form right. The point is that to a skilled martial artists it makes no sense to talk about fine-tuning technique with top-level details, when the student hasn't learned to walk, let alone crawl yet. After you have diligently trained for a while (say 6-9 months) you will probably begin to appreciate this viewpoint. Thus, my advice to you is to check through the list above: If you can answer yes to them all, you're already on a very good path. Apart from that it is up to you to: Study (there are tons of good books that will teach you about qi in connection with tai chi and other IMA) Train every day (repeat the forms and techniques you are learning daily! - even if for only a few minutes on some days - waiting till the regular class next week ensures only that you will never progress to a high level because you will be spending the lion's share on each class trying to remember what you learned last time) Keep training and do let us know how it goes!

Before answering your question, here's a riddle for you: If you were to quantify the word "big" what would you say? IMHO there is no particular "Taoist breathing": There are of course different breathing methods, system and theories configuring as elements in many systems considered close to taoism, such e.g. mediation, martial arts, healing / self-healing, etc. In other words, different objectives mean different holistic approaches with different breathing patterns among many other things. (Here's a hint to the riddle: notice that the absence of context makes it impossible to answer the question in a profound way). To summarize, here's the only consensus on Taoist breathing I can think of: If you don't breathe you will surely die!

There's a years-old thread on this: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/2053-the-5-tibetan-rites/ I do them occasionally - especially when my back is sore or if I feel stiff or inflexible. On a daily basis I do IMA (Baduan Jin Qigong, Xingyi Quan Wu Xing, etc.) - but sometimes I feel I need that extra stretch and back support - and that's when I'll do the 5 Tibetans - sometimes keeping it up daily for a week or two. I can also highly recommend practising it for a few days before having to sit static for long (e.g. long bus rides, overseas plane rides, etc.) - this will ensure against irritations in the back. Don't forget the most important: Practice on the day of travelling too, by getting up 10-15 minutes earlier to kick-start the day. As such I view the 5 Tibetans mainly as a physical exercise although especially targeting the major energy pathways of the body, but it is of course also a great workout preparation for spiritual cultivation (IMHO much more so than purely physical activities, say cycling or running).

I have the teeth very close: Almost, but not touching. IMHO the tongue takes care of the connection between the governing and conception vessels while the rest of the face, jaws and mouth may relax.

Just thinking out loud here: Is there a chance that your teacher has some experience that tells him you are over-focusing on meditation (to build up strong qi which you would like for martial power) in lieu of practising your alignments and forms more diligently? In other words, if the purpose of your meditation is martial strength but your mind and body is not being conditioned to heed the sage advice through thousands upon thousands of well considered and corrected repetitions any meditation (for that purpose) will have been in vain: in this sense, the more you focus on it, the less you are likely to put in the time and effort (gong fu) required to reach the level of mastery you would like. Does that make sense or am I barking up the wrong tree here? If however, that is not the purpose of your meditation (i.e. martial strength) you might want to look up a master who is not a strongly focussed martial artists. For example, if it's spirituality you seek guidance in, perhaps you should try a (taoist?) priest instead since you're having difficulties on your own? Thus, try to express (if not in a forum post, then at least to yourself) what you want to achieve - i.e. in other words, try to write down why you bother with meditation in the first place? Next, give it a day or two and before you know it you will know which is the right path for you to seek.

very nice - thanks, Mal!

Like all of Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming's books it is filled with pearls of knowledge from many sources to allow you to make up your own mind based on an informed decision along the way and were it for that reason alone, I think it is a book worthy of consideration. I really wish more authors would follow his example when presenting things rather than only their own version. This said, IMHO it is by no means the best book he has written, so my advice to you will be: if you're fairly advanced and have already traversed 20+ books on the topic of qi, qigong, taoist breathing, nei jia, nei gong, taoist yoga, etc, then buy it. If not, I suggest starting out with something both more foundational, easier to understand and easier to implement.

Hi Moonbar, I was just about to tell you last night what I have started doing as daily practise which got me almost asthma free, when I suddenly had a case of asthma on my own after walking the dog. Here's what I did of long run changes within the last year: I practice Xingyiquan (Sun Lutang style) 5 elements several times a week and additionally I may practise some of the 12 animal forms that go with it on and off. I made some dietary changes to start loosing weight (modestly, but consistently). The 5 element exercises helps me balance things out - by doing them regularly (and only based on repeated practice) it's like resetting my system - I use it against many things: not feeling well, feeling beat, jetlag and allergies - both preventively as well as for treatment. Before proceeding with explaining my experience, I find it prudent to say that my asthma was never so bad that I would seize breathing - I mention this only to give you an impression about the basics of this experience and to let you know that I don't know if I would be able to keep my cool if there was ever a risk of loosing conciousness as may be the case with some asthmatics. Yesterday evening (Thursday) I had not trained since Tuesday night. After a huge rainstorm the night before (Wednesday) everything was blooming and pollinating like crazy in the summer heat and by the time I got home my nose and eyes were itching and running and I kept sneezing. As I settled down on the couch my bronchi's started swelling and test-pushing air out of the lungs confirmed that asthma was starting based on the rattling sound and the constricted feeling of my air pipe closing in. Over the next 45 minutes the situation deteriorated till a point where I thought to myself that few years ago, I wouldn't have been able to sleep the night for more than a few hours maximum before waking up with complete asthma unless if I would go immediately to the medicine cupboard and get my prescription spray. Instead of getting my medicine, I did the following: Abdominal Breathing Exercises The metal element (pi quan / splitting fist) of Xingyiquan The Tai Bird Form (Tai Xing) of Xingyiquan More Abdominal Breating When using abdominal breathing against asthma, I am particularly mindful of trying to breathe slowly and controlled by neither pushing nor pulling in air with the lungs, but simply letting it flow by controlling my abdomen. A point which I consider particularly important for me when using this in my case of asthma, is to completely exhale (and let the rest of the air run out of the lungs, instead of keeping them half full as often tends to be the case for me when having asthma). I did this for around 20 breaths or so. I then proceeded to practising Xingyiquan Pi Quan (the metal / splitting fist) which is the element of the lungs according to Taoist and Xingyiquan theory. Instead of training for speed, I would train slowly, but with full intent and force while making sure to push my last breath of air out forcefully with the intent of lowering excess qi to the dantian (in Xingyiquan we use reverse abdominal breathing, contrary to what I described above). I practiced about 2 sets of this, back an forth - probably 12-13 fists and 4 turns in total) Next, I practised the Tai Bird form of Xingyiquan which according to Sun Lutang has the properties of being helpful to the liver (another ailment of mine) and the lungs. Same princple with the breating as in Pi Quan. I practised this set back and forth just once, probably 8-9 fists and two turns. Next, I continued with another round of 20 or so breaths of conventional abdominal breathing. as also described above. By now, I still had asthma, but felt that it was certainly not advancing further. 20 minutes later, I went to bed and did another round of abdominal breathing (again making sure to exhale absolutely fully on each round). By now, my asthma was 80% gone. This morning I woke up and my wife noted that I hadn't snored (which I always do when being troubled by asthma and allergies in my sleep). Thus, with this experience I hope to have helped encourage you to consider working on: 1. Abdominal breathing (as others have suggested, buy a book and practice it - you can learn it well within few weeks to a month if you put your mind to it. 2. Internal Martial Arts (IMA) - I described what I could use from my system above - another post suggested similar approaches based on taiji - all in all, I am sure it doesn't really matter which system, as long as you practice it diligently - in order to ensure that IMA works for you rather than to your detriment, it is however important to find an able master - consider looking up the yellow pages or ask around for kung fu schools specializing in IMA in your local community. Please note however, that this part can not be learned over night - so prepare to study hard for at least 3-6 months before deciding to drop it. (If you decide this may be something for you, that is)

Hi mewtwo, I have two things to share with you: One is an experience (which I have had a couple of times) where it was like I was awake, yet meditating while sleeping, all night - I have been able to do that a couple of times, but only when having done lots of energy work throughout the day combined with the "Sunset and Sunrise Circulation" descriped in ["Book 2: Daoist Qigong" from the book titled Qigong Empowerment - A Guide to Medical, Taoist, Buddhist, Wushu Energy Cultivation by Master Shou-Yu Liang and Wen Ching Wu] for a couple of days (every dawn and dusk). The method (which is Taoist! ) is not described as being intended for what you were asking, but that was a nice side-effect which I experienced. In case you're wondering why on earth I don't do this all the time, I can tell you that I find it difficult to stick to the dawn and dusk schedule with work, family, kids around demanding my attention at the oddest of hours Apart from that, I can also (as many others in this thread) suggest that you consider lucid dreaming - I read books about this by William Buhlmann (Adventures Beyond the Body) and Robert Bruce (Astral Dynamics) which both acted as eye-openers for me. Both authors build a lot on the use of 'affirmations' (essentially 'suggestions' in a sense of clinical hypnosis) which I guess is very much in line with what thelerner was referring to above. I hope you will soon be able to turn your ailment into a benefit!

I don't know Damo's Cave from KAP and haven't had the opportunity to read the Path Notes of an American Ninja Master either. I checked out the link - that is not the one I am using, but I guess one may well be as good the other Before I can answer you question (about how I do self-hypnosis) we need to talk about what hypnosis is (I know I will probably get grilled for this, so please consider that this is solely my own humble opinion): Hypnosis is a range of methods (usually based on subsequent accepted suggestion upon accepted suggestion) which allows you to enter into an altered state (very high concentration and focus on some levels, yet no or little on others). The important thing to note here is that it can only work if the person being hypnotised is willing to "play along" (by accepting the suggestions). I was taught a script which was named "The Heart's Garden" - I think Mal once posted something similar he had picked up from some exhibition or show, but couldn't find the thread, so sorry if I repeat something already on the forum: Starts out with a couple of getting started suggestions: You can sit yourself comfortably if you like. If you want to, you may to close your eyes. Although you might get sleepy and drift off a bit, you will continue to hear my voice. Now, imagine entering your heart's garden - there's a beautiful open gate in front of the garden, and you can see it (perhaps not clearly yet) - but you can certainly enter without any problems. You may not recall having been here before, but you will realize how tranquil it has always been and you may even wonder at some stage why you didn't think of going here more often. Take your time, look around - try to visualize the detail of the wonderful things in your garden. It is full of your helpers - if flowers are there and need gardening, your helpers take joy in cultivating the garden. Look around some more - explore - investigate the detail you see. From here the story can split - e.g. towards meditation: In your garden is a huge Lotus flower - with the color you imagine and with as many flower petals as you can imagine. You will notice that this is the most tranquil part of the garden to do meditation. You will notice that it is big, sturdy and comfortable enough to allow you to sit on or lay in as you may in the most comfortable way to let go of all thoughts and clear your mind. -or it could split to helping you remember something you forgot: In your heart's garden you will notice a beautiful little shed - when you go there and open you door you will notice that it is full of things that you hold dear - full of memories. Explore the shed, opening its door and looking around - seeing what's on the table inside, opening the drawers, seeing what's inside.... You will remember that this is a wonderful place to keep things that are important to you. -or it could split to a 'special vehicle': In your heart's garden you notice a little hill - you make you way through the garden, past all of the things in your garden, looking around on the way, noticing some of the the detail along the way. As you make it to the hill you will notice a vehicle - unlike any vehicle you have ever seen before, but which is big enough to fit you comfortably inside. This vehicle is no ordinary vehicle - it can take you to anywhere you want to go, say, the centre of the universe. All you have to do is to decide that the vehicle should take you to the centre of the universe and off you go - slowly at first, but in no time you will start noticing how are moving fast - faster than the speed of light and as everything seems to pass by, you suddenly find the vehicle slowing and finally coming to a halt: Right at the centre of the Universe... On ending: You return to your vehicle, get in and wish yourself back to your heart's garden. After returning you notice how surprised you are at how easy this was, and how wonderful it is to be back in your heart's garten. Spend as long time you want to here, to settle back in. When you are ready, you proceed back through the gate - exactly the way you came. You notice yourself sitting comfortably, as before - probably you still have your eyes closed. You may open them when ready, but no rush... -as you can probably imagine by now, the stories are potentially endless and as you work your way through, you can much easier get to 'where you want to go'. The first couple of times you try it may feel a bit odd (or not quite in there) - but after a couple of times, you will be able to build on previous images "experiences" to help you "get there" with much less effort. One such thing can be some things you picture from session to session about how you get to the gate of the garten, how you walk through or get in there, etc.

I do not associate any of the 5 elements with the color pink - as simple as that Why, because I associate the five elements with white (metal/lungs), blue/black (water/kidneys), green (wood(liver), red (fire/heart) and finally yellow (earth/spleen). Are you sure you're actually looking for one of the 5 elements? (rather than perhaps a chakra, something you saw during meditation, in a dream, etc.)

> Are you meditating or are you self-hypnotising yourself? If I am extremely calm, yet awake enough, I will try to meditate without further ado. When I succeed in this, I get to where I wanted to go. Sometimes, however, it doesn't quite work out that way (or I am not calm enough and know it) - so I will use self-hypnonsis based on visualization as a short-cut to help get me to a meditative state. Based on a bit of training this usually works for me within a few minutes rather than spending half an hour or more trying to appease the monkey mind. Thus, what I am trying to say is the following: I use both means to get to get to the same end. I mentioned "awake enough" because I usually meditate in the deepest way when laying down - if I am sleepy, either method will make me fall asleep in no time. Some people have a tendency to succumbing to daydreaming and fantasizing if starting out with visualization. Experience gained that way can often help stimulate future self-hypnosis induced meditation sessions although it is usually detrimental to the mediation session at hand. A trick can be to decide in advance roughly how far you will allow your visualization to take you before "turning it off".

Hi Friends, When I do a lot of energy exercises (like 4+ hours per week of IMA plus various minor qi gong / qi circulation exercises on a daily basis) I get hypersensitive to radio signals, i.e.: * the cell phone in my pocket bothers me until I turn it off or remove it approx. 30 cm / a foot or so * the laptop in my lap irritates me unless if I turn off the wireless network connection and work either off-line or using a cable network connection instead -with the words 'bothers' and 'irritates' I mean an itching and tension in body parts / spots close to the transmitting device - examples may include: energy pathways in the upper legs / lower torso, palms of my hands, in the joints (e.g. wrist, hip, etc.) or the sides of my head... If I scale down on my training and energy work, the above mentioned symptoms disappear again after a couple of days to a week. Anybody else experience anything similar?

Thanks for your feedback Everybody. I had a discussion with WallaMike on another thread about the frequencies: * WiFi is at 2.4 GHz * Cell phones at 0.9, 1.8 or 2.1 GHz * Microwave ovens at 2.45 GHz Oscillating fans were also suggested - a quick check also suggest similar frequencies. If anybody gets the idea of trying to measure people running energy it would be interesting to hear what the readings suggest in that range

Hi Simple_Jack, Welcome! Cheesecake seems to bring out the best of many people: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ainGwdBlbes