devoid

I wish to add that to many Taoists, Taoism is a philosophy and not a religion.

Very nice - thanks for posting. The following really struck a chord with me (from the first of the two talks you posted): It is absolutely absurd to say that we came into this world: We didn't. We came out of it. Edit: Typo

Thanks Marblehead, I have questions for you on this one: What does Chapter 23 really tell us? I'll admit that to me this one sounds more like a tautology than a taotology, but I will not be surprised if it is only because I didn't look deep enough

Well said, Marblehead! I guess additionally, I tried to say that those who do not take Sun Tzu seriously are condemned to the same fate as those who do not understand history. I suppose that from this we can deduce that being a successful warmonger is no easy feat

Hi Marblehead, Thanks for your insightful post. I've decided long time ago not to personally mix politics with Taoism so my response to your post will be a bit more generalized: My observation is that many who have waged war over the times have not really thought it through before jumping to action. I am convinced that many will make the same mistakes time and again in the future and as such this treatise will continue to remain as valid in the future as it is today and was in the past. If history is any indicator it will probably continue to remain as overlooked. There are a couple of things that I really, really like about this chapter - those are the inclusiveness (of thinking holistically) the understanding of knowledge and the chivalry (rather than the cavalry ) 7 and 15-18 contain some great examples of this. I mentioned in the chapter 1 thread that the Art of War can be considered "the way of dealing with challenges", assuming one is willing to let go of the word war. Although this chapter has war written all over it, I also believe that is possible for this chapter. In the coming days I will write a post on that.

Hi Astral, The snip you posted (of what the craftsman is doing) is a great example of what the Chinese mean when they say doing without doing: He has practiced his skills so much (done the gong fu) that he has made it a perfected automatism that he can start or stop simply by will power after which his hands simply do the job for him without bothering his conscious mind. At this perfected stage he does not require concentration any more - he is freed from it in relative to this task. Now, getting to that point (e.g. if one was a new apprentice of the craftsman) is an entirely different matter which requires lots of concentration and lots of hardship. The concentration required can very well be cultivated - here's how: The trick is to tune down the heart(mind) and focus on the (intellectual)mind - i.e. focus on the Yi and tune down the Xin to use the Chinese terms of the intellectual, decision-making and the emotional mind. Thus, from an energetic perspective, simply shift the majority of energy flow going to middle dan tian to the upper and lower dan tians. In terms of chakras, try to tune down / seal off the heart chakra while you need to concentrate.

Hi Sifusufi, Great thread topic and thanks for the articles! I agree with unmike that Anatomy trains is really great for looking at these things. A couple of other things spring to mind (a Frenchman researching in this field, some qigong forms and theory as well as a few thoughts of my own on this for what they're worth ), but I need to look up a couple of things before responding in a more coherent way - might be a few days...

Hi Sloppy, I see your point: It's already out there - just go and discover - generally I tend to agree. So, I pose the question, why do people buy any courses in the first place (and here I mean in general, not just from Robert Bruce)? I guess the answer is that there different many reasons. The most compelling one I can think of is that it is a huge short cut - plain and simple - it will save you heaps of time. Thus, all I am saying is that if you want a course for your development, I think RB is offering good value for money. If you don't want a course and want to study on your own that's great too - then simply avoid the courses because so much has been written about anything we discuss on this forum that nobody really needs a course if he's willing to invest the time and effort on his own in finding the right books, reading, experimenting and practicing.

Hi Everything, Nice post. If you'll allow, I would like to try to say what you said in a more compact form: Whatever beliefs and perceptions one may have, it is healthy to question these in order to understand the true nature of things. The funny thing is that after enough pondering in this manner on any topic one will inevitably reach the conclusion that things are the way they are. Yet at the same time, one cannot know this till one has pondered either view.

Hi Marblehead, thanks for posting! Hi Manitou, I think you managed to describe the essence of this chapter very well indeed! I would like to add that to me this chapter is the foundation of the yin / yang theory and taiji theory (not necessarily in a martial arts sense). We see this shining through a couple of times - first with Therefore the wise embrace the one and then finally nailing it with: Therefore the ancients say, "Yield and overcome." Is that an empty saying? Be really whole, And all things will come to you. Thus, from the Wuwei comes the spark, the yang, and the void which is not yang turns to yin, separated by the taiji, eventually to return to the Wuwei state, yet in perfect balance all along.

In application, the important thing is to consider how to map out the five constituents / stakeholders of section 4: The Way (The rule-set / laws that governs the challenge) Heaven (The forces that influence any decision on the challenge, but cannot be easily influenced) Earth (The environment of the challenge and the resources available) Commander (The strategist / Ponderer: You) Method (The implementation of the strategy) There is one more constituent / stakeholder which is easily overlooked, but very important: The State (in section 1). The State represents the general ideal environment of values to the strategist - i.e. that which represents what the strategist wants to achieve the best possible outcome for (both in relation to the given challenge as well as in a broader sense). The funny thing is that when one looks at it this way, a challenge can be seen at any universal level - whether microcosmic or macrocosmic, to use terms often discussed here on TTB. War is simply one example / application. If you are interested we could consider trying to play around with some other example applications.

Hi XieJia, I agree it's fun to play around with the characters and I also agree that 'bing' unmistakably refers to soldiers, military, etc. As such, if we don't want to deviate from the word war, the treatise is really the war commanders' model of strategic war fare. With the proposed interpretation (rather than translation) I am simply trying to reconcile the fact that the strategy presented in the Art of War can be used in pretty much all walks of life if one will allow to deviate from the principle of war (and the word itself) and instead consider it a book on the rules of strategy for any complex challenge. That's why I proposed the interpretation rather than a one-to-one Chinese-character-to-English-word translation. Of course I fully respect and appreciate any disagreement to such a broad interpretation and I can fully understand if some would argue that it may be too far fetched. Edit: I find it really interesting with the hands holding / working something theory for the bing character. Sorry I didn't comment on that in the first round, I am not much into the interpretation of characters myself - when reading through things such as this treatise I generally try to read between the lines rather than into the words

ahhh - I believe what you describe here has nothing to do with inner dwarfs and higher self, rather it is the inner demon that shouts louder than the ones who cry: pull yourself together and get on with it! In other words, I don't think you actually need help with identifying the source of motivation for doing what is right. All you need to do is close your eyes and ask yourself what is the right thing to do right now. Pretend you are your own best friend for a while: What would you tell yourself? (I think you already know). Sorry about being so straight forward on this. I have no intention to be rude. I only want you to consider that the Tao and the Tao Te Ching is really an incredibly poor excuse for not getting your act together.

Many thanks for all of the contributions - I am really exited about this discussion! Most of us seem to agree that this treatise is universally applicable (i.e. also to things other than war). I would like say a few more words about that and even propose an alternative title to the treatise rather than The Art of War: If we replace the word 'war' with 'challenge' or 'struggle' it begins to become easy to see how this treatise can be use for other things. While the treatise is quite detailed it really sums up to telling us to look holistically at anything with which we wish to struggle in a manner which will lead to success within the given context. From this viewpoint the first chapter on planning is perhaps the most important because it lays the foundation for how one should approach and pursue challenges. On these ground I would therefore like to propose an alternative, interpreted, translation for the treatise: The Way (Tao) of (dealing with) Challenges. @ XieJia: I agree, the "Way" (or the "Tao") is by far the better translation in our context than the Moral Law. On a side note, from a viewpoint of modern philosophy I believe the right translation would be "Ethics". Also, many thanks for all the insight! @ Marblehead: Thanks for the insight on when the treatise is thought to have come about. I agree that it would be very interesting to hear from a scholar on the dependencies / influences between this treatise and the Tao Te Ching. @ Ninpo: You mentioned other threads on this topic. I did my best with searching the forum using both Google as well as TTB search functionality. If you can point me to any old discussions I would greatly appreciate it.

Hi Friends, I think we're giving Robert Bruce too hard a time here. 200 bucks is a lot of money, yet if we look at what other big shots charge people, I really don't think Robert is through the roof. On that note, I just received an email from another self-promoting linage master who will teach me meditation for 27 bucks (recurring) or some short form of Taiji together with a certificate for only 5,000 dollars. I agree that the marketing efforts of Robert Bruce and his marketing are a bit of joke (at least it makes me laugh ), yet I advise everybody not to underestimate the value of Aussie honesty and saying things straight out. The really (really!) nice thing about Robert Bruce is that he is not one of these teachers that always promise you too much only to discover that you need to buy his next course because they're holding back. In other words, 200 dollars for spilling it is really good value IMHO - especially if you're looking for a short cut to getting started. Sure, you can do things without a master (I did!) - yet many on this forum fret that you need a master for pretty much anything. If that's you I would definitely consider this program as high value for little money.

Hi Friends, I just returned from a trip for work. I am thrilled to see that the discussion seems to be thriving and I look forward to reading up on all the posts and contributions in the weekend! In the meanwhile, I also had some thoughts on discussing how to apply the philosophy of Art of War to things other than war, as I feel that (too) many people reject it on forehand - simply because of the implications of the title. I will try to provide more detail within the next few days

Very wise words - thanks for posting, Aaron!

Hi XieJia, Thank you for your kind response. Just like with any ancient Chinese text, so much can get lost (or found? ) in translation. It is indeed useful to study and work on different translations as well as the original text. To that end, I should probably add that I didn't choose the Lionel Giles translation over others for any particular reason - sorry for now making that clear. As such, I encourage any contribution to this thread, be it resources, interpretations (your own or others). Regarding where to keep the thread (discussion forum, book club, etc.) I think it may still be premature to decide what to do. Until the discussions on the Tao Te Ching matured and it received its own sub-forum, the discussions took place mainly in the discussion forum. A recent post from manitou suggested that they were having trouble getting enough traction in the discussions as they left the general discussion board. So, let's wait and see. Edits: Typos.

Hi Thomsun, The magical words mean that once you have stilled your mind, new thoughts and inspiration will suddenly appear and begin to flourish. How to still the mind? Keep trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and then trying again. Give it a rest in between - don't overdo it in one go, but try to make a practice out of it. Once you are able to sit and stare into thin air without a thought appearing that you cannot tame or let go, you have started finding out how to do this. Once you have stilled your mind, put a content smile on your face and let it fill you with you a warm fussy feeling. This is where you will suddenly one day be able to see motivation without any form of stress (it will take time). I know it probably sounds a bit crazy from where you're looking at it right now, but if you try this sincerely for 10-15 minutes per day, I'll bet you that by end of spring you'll know what I am talking about. If this speaks to you and you decide to give it a go, feel free to PM me questions along the way if you feel you need any assistance.

Absolutely! It can only be a matter of time before he joins us at the Taobums in his endless pursuit of the tao, the self and the force

Hi YAN, Good question - as you can probably begin to tell from the responses, nobody can really explain it in words - and neither can I. That's the bad news, but there is good news too: Once you experience communicating with your higher self and asking questions to answers of which you are not sure, things often suddenly seem obvious. Hmmm, I can hear how that sounds odd, but once you try it you will probably smile and wonder what was so odd about the idea of communicating with your higher self. It reminds me of some wise words I read along the way when a teacher said something like: I can give somebody a glass of water, but I will never be able to explain what it tastes and feels like. I guess communication with ones higher self falls into that same category. So, how to go about it? Asking your higher self for help is an important first step. Beware that communicating with your higher self requires a high degree of trusting your own intuition (and listening to it, too). Connecting the heart and mind (the Yi and Xin to use the Chinese terms of the intellectual, decision-making and the emotional mind) is an important prerequisite along with a very calm state of mind. I wish you happy exploring

Hi cicada, ...a warm welcome to the Taobums! It's good to have you here :-)

Hi Manitou, Indeed the constant flux and change - the opposite powers rising and falling, balancing out after each extreme. Re. "It's all good" I am not sure if I understood you correctly: Certainly, I don't agree that all is good, yet I will agree that nothing is so bad that it is not good for anything

Hi Thomsun, Good question. Out of wu wei, a spark of yang bears the yin and the taiji. The one becomes two and the two becomes three out of which all things can be. This is part of the tao. In other words, some almost magical impulse (e.g. inspiration) stirs in the great void and suddenly many things abound (e.g. motivation). I wish you happy pondering

Hi TS, I see your point, but at the same time, I am not sure I agree. What gets to me is that I neither see heaven, earth, nor any of the sages as the tao. Even if one would argue that the tao is impartial (which I don't necessarily agree with) this does not mean that it is necessarily unkind. Perhaps it's semantics, but impartial simply means without prejudice - as such this does not preclude kindness or empathy per se.