majc

Yeah, I guess this must happen to most people who read "causes the people to be without knowledge". I don't like it at all. -------------------- Without ideals, there is no striving.
 Without held treasures, there is no theft.
 Without desired visions, there's nothing lacking. Thus... 
The Master departs from desires, and is fulfilled.
 Curbs enthusiasm, and stays poised. He uproots fixed beliefs. Disrobes glorified ideas. With not a thing to prove,
 things are ordered. www.openwisdom.org/tao-te-ching/#3 -------------------- I think the idea of governing others is brought to this chapter by the reader. A method of governing others (if that's what you happen to be doing) does seem to follow from what's written, but that's only one application. This chapter makes more sense as a method to apply universally - being practical, and staying empirical about what we hold up as truth and why we hold it to be so. And I think... I think 'strengthening bones' and 'filling bellies' just might be metaphorical...

Ha, maybe... or it could be more like understanding that, as part of being a human being, beliefs and notions do arise, and that this is not something to be opposed, but rather taken in stride. Cross-thread reference, huh? Kerpow! Very nice. hehe, I never said I couldn't be what you call ornamental - I only disagree with making the distinction that it is somehow "better" than being idle. That's exactly right. And being idle might sometimes be an important part of one's way of exploring. No particular method of exploring is 'correct', or even crucial. And therefore all such notions should be shed to fly with the way of things exactly as they are in this current moment. Otherwise you're in your own way. S'all I'm sayin'!

Ch 1 is the simplest, minimalist, compressed expression of the whole thing. The other 80 chapters aid and reinforce its unpacking. Sort of, except well, no... we're not really told to do that at all. The TTC is more like an open invitation to recognize our relationship with the world. Doing nothing is a seriously awkward definition... but ok, so when was the last time you did anything else? So you're saying that avoiding these things isn't a watercourse way? doh. Name 1 out of 7 billion human beings right now on the earth who isn't living naturally... Actually wait, now you mention it, just the other week I saw this guy who was really annoyed by gravity so he decided to float everywhere instead, and then he planted a star in his back garden, stopped his heartbeat for a year, pulled a family of elephants out of an average post office envelope, and ate his own head. It was awesome.

You mean proper water waves? Not right now, sadly. Maybe one day - I love the outlook. Hey. Precisely! That is the distinction contained in those two lines! (Is it worth noting that "shedding your notions" is an action which does still involve notions? ) (Of course you can use mine!) What do you mean by Tao's "essence"? Ch 11 is a very simple demonstration of mutuality. The emphasis placed on what is not in nearly all previous English versions has been added by the translator. Neither what is nor what is not is emphasized in mine: a hole with no spokes around it moves no cart. Agreed on the first part about forced action. But what about ignoring the limitation of words and symbols (as the preceding lines so succinctly explain)? I think the two lines you're referring to may only be a litmus test for the intention of the writer: If their intention is to wrap comprehensive imagery around the Tao in order to contain a certain fixed understanding of The Way Things Are in words, they will take care to present a notionally "balanced" view. If their expression is free of this intention to obtain or contain a fixed understanding... or in other words, if instead of making a conscious effort to explain the Tao, their action is something more along the lines of a written celebration, filled with wonder at the very act of exploring what-it's-like-to-try-to-understand-The-Way-Things-Are, for its own sake... Well that's what mine is about...

All great points. Rendition is a good word, and I like expression too. As for the neutral tone vs. Tao emphasis... Since the book is about Tao, I think not emphasizing Tao is a conscious attempt on behalf of the translator entertainer to make his/her expression of the TTC conform to a preconceived notion of "balance". I don't think that kind of deliberate, forced-down-a-particular-route action is Te: the free-spirited watercourse style of action exemplified by Lao Tzu in his writing the TTC in the first place. I did a Tao Te Ching and it went like this: The Tao that can be told is not the Tao; there cannot be a true definition. Nature proceeds undivided; definitions are of separate things. Thus... Shed your notions to fly with this mystery. With your notions you are in your own way. Two polar ways to ride one wave, made different by trying to explain. Explore the unity beneath surface differences. This is the doorway to the unwritten subtlety of the Master. Rest of it continues here.

Wait, can we recap: the first two methods are good... so in other words, they constitute the 'right' way to exist - they serve a better purpose than what you've identified as a third, bad, method which is merely a waste of time and serves... a lower purpose...? huh. Great categories - compelling, and rich. And also nonsense. High and low arrange each other. Ha, which part of the water is better?

TWIV, your Method could be Way easier if you incorporated paragraphing into your Practice. To no particular place, not in search of any particular place. And it's not a concept. The speaking of those words is an action, like Word Jitsu or something. This mountain monkey's speech drags the questioner's mental momentum out and away from the concepts he has put in his own way. Further along towards... what? What conceptual thing are you moving further along towards? There is no distinct concept, method, or approach here. How would you cling to it? The struggle to find a concept, method, or approach to which you can cling. Fuck knows. But that is one amusingly concept-filled question you just asked right there. What happens if you let go of those ideas? DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNN! Look out!

I'm with these guys. Literati and therefore not a Taoist.

Nice, Stig! That's exactly right. Try this one.

Oh I know it is! It's also self-defeating since I am saying more as soon as I make the comparison between it and something either more concise (Buddhist version) or less concise (epic Tao Bum thread).

Based on Lao Tzu, my response would be "let's find out." And I imagine a good scientist's answer would be exactly the same.

My confusion is dependently originated with this thread.

2010 Tao Te Ching. Check it out: 1. The Tao that can be told is not the Tao; there cannot be a true definition. Nature proceeds undivided; definitions are of separate things. Thus... Shed your notions to fly with its mystery. With your notions you are in your own way. Two polar ways to see one source, made different by trying to explain. Explore the unity beneath surface differences. This is the doorway to the unwritten subtlety of the Master. 2. When the world identifies beauty, this defines ugliness. When we distinguish the righteous, this declares the corrupt. So in the same way... Something and nothing create each other. Difficult and easy explain each other. Long and short describe each other. High and low arrange each other. Harmony and discord compose each other. Front and back appoint each other. Thus... Skillful eyes see beyond these distinctions. The Master's method does not form according to worded instruction. He sees without description. Creates without claim. Does without expectation. Accomplishes without mention. So far as he does not dwell in these ways, he remains with the mystery. 3. Without ideals, there is no striving. Without held treasures, there is no theft. Without desired visions, there's nothing lacking. Thus... The Master departs from desires, and is fulfilled. Curbs enthusiasm, and stays poised. He uproots fixed beliefs. Disrobes glorified ideas. With not a thing to prove, there is order. Continues here. All opinions, judgments, advice, feedback, suggestions, criticisms, demands, insults, questions, suspicions, complaints, accusations, one-word responses, prayers, jokes and any other thoughts gladly received. (Thank you for reading, please let me know what you think).

Thanks! Did you read the whole thing or just those 3? It builds up and gets better as it goes on in my opinion.

Can't say I know what's being attained... but sure, why not? A backwards way, maybe? Of course, what I meant was it is published now: as a web page. This way, people who can't afford books can still read it. If someone finds it worthwhile, they can make a contribution afterwards. I guess it works backwards fashion, true to form for what's written.

Thanks! And I'm not planning anymore, I think I just did.

Yep.

Awesome, then keep going! And I agree with you about 'balance'. To quote my own blog: "I think balancing would be better - including the crucial sense of an always moving and changing interaction."

Institutions built around the idea of forcing 'De' into existence stress this. The Tao does not. 'Wu Wei' translates better as non-forcing - or, if you like, non-preconception-based-manufacturing-of-action - the result of which is an appearance of effortless doing. That's not the concept at all. The method (not concept) exemplified in Lao Tzu's writing of the Tao Te Ching is that of leaving behind, or letting go, any and all concepts which arise - of which "not dominating and not competing" is of course one. The result of this (what some might see as naive) trusting unto one's own basic nature - i.e. the Tao* - is, theoretically, harmony. *if it must be labeled.

So is this thread dead? I believe it can be reincarnated. Why the fuck not? Looking at and interpreting everything through a prism of Buddhist symbolism - or in other words, constantly labeling any and every experience according to some 2,500 year old dead Indian's wordplay - is a clever thing to be doing with your mind. Making these connections between your experiences and his words is a skill which you have clearly invested a lot of time and energy in perfecting. This is good. And also unnecessary.

*nod* that's much clearer. I was only joking, I meant no offense to anyone. Sorry about that. I don't know anything about any traditions. But Lao Tzu did put in ch.32: Every exact (or defined) path is to the Tao as tiny streams are to the sea. Buddhism seems like a defined path. And so does 'Taoism'. S'all I'm sayin'.

Yeah my fault, I meant obscure not vague.