baiqi

Hello everyone. It's been a long time I didn't write anything here. Before answering the "who is right who is wrong", I want to stress a few points I discovered for myself and share. First of all the title "Living life is a totally misconstrued taoist concept" doesn't seem right to me. Living life is exactly what taoism is about! However, there is the question of indulging into sex, food and such. Tulku says he writes about taoism, but quotes indian (buddhist or hindu?) writers. Philosophical taoism is quite different. I am currently re-reading Lie Zi, he seems to be the complete opposite of that. I remember this story - which quite shocked me the first time I read it- about to brothers ruling a kingdom, one being always drunk, the other one always fornicating. One confucian scholar comes along, complains about this to a famous wiseman, who says that these men are "real men", and that the kingdom is well-ruled thanks to that! (taoist logic: the rulers don't do anything because they're drunk or doing something in their private chambers: so the kingdom is well-ruled!) But not all of taoism is like that, of course. Yes there are some very ascetic people, living in the mountains, in caves, or in the caves in the mountains! Lao Zi talked about "the five colors hurting the sight, the five sounds hurt the ear" and so on. And desire, is considered, just like in buddhism, to be the root of all evil. Contradiction? Oh, yes, but taoism loves contradiction. I personnaly realised that pain and pleasure are like yin and yang. You cannot have one without the other. So the more you indulge into your senses, the more pain you will get in return. And the opposite is true, too. I mean this at all levels, not just the basic physical level. It can be intellectual, emotional etc. So what should we do about it? The ascetic would choose to willingfully feel pain, whipping himself, starving and such; in order to feel pleasure after that. A pleasure he will consider to be divine. The hedonist, on the other hand usually believes he will have more pleasure by indulging more and more. The two are wrong, unless they realise pain and pleasure go together. The extasy is not necessarily divine. Pleasure won't be everlasting. The goal in my view is to accept both. When you feel pain accept it and see it is transitory, when you feel pleasure, live it fully but know it won't last. There isn't a single way to achieve this. I believe having some discipline is good for most of us. However, it can also be good to "live life fully" in the common sense: going against one's deepest desires is pretty hard, and can be a way for the ego to actually get more power. For some people, however, it is good to do so. So you can choose both ways, the only thing is to realise the duality of the stuff in order to go above it.

Hi all. This has been a very interesting conversation. Just wanted to add a quite sad thing: in China today, many wrongly assume that the DDJ (TTK...) is a treatese on morality, just like another confucian classic. This is of course not the case. This wrong belief comes from the fact that "daode" is now translated by "virtue, morality" in modern Chinese. I don't know how this change, not to say complete inversion of meaning was made. It is very clear to me that "daode" comes from daoism, but with another meaning. Wouldn't be surprised that some confucians made it that way.

Hsu Yun has been credited with some "miracles". One of them was that he was beaten very badly by the red guards during the cultural revolution, when he was around 90 years old. He was in meditation and did not react. When he "woke up", he had lost his sight partially, but he managed to live another 20 years in an overall good condition. This scared the red guards themselves. Also, the communist authorities became "more tolerant" on buddhism after that. About siddhis in general: I said that before, beeing in the Tao is NOT about getting special powers. However, it may happen (most probably) that some "weird" things happen in the process. There are some things, such as telepathy, that people consider "supernatural", I consider it just a natural thing more developped within people who have empathy. Back to the original question (Taiwan or China): my experience in China and Taiwan indicated to me that Taiwan was more respectful of Chinese culture than the Mainland. Some disagree; I cannot make an argument here, it depends on how you see "traditional Chinese culture". Also, the mainland is huge, it differs very much from one place to another.

Taiwan is a place where Chinese tradition has been much more preserved than in Mainland China, no doubt about it. Also, it is a much better place to live, in my opinion. However, as others stated, the Taoism there is more from the "Tianshi" scool, which means more "magic", rituals etc. than self-development. In contrast, Mainland Taoism is more "Quanzhen", or self-cultivation oriented. So that depends on what you're looking for when you say you want to study taoism.

The Chinese text you have states that it is close to 儉, which is one of the "three treasures" of the 67 th chapter.

I have some difficulties to understand why the chinese word "xian"仙 is translated by "immortal". It's etimology suggests more someone like a hermit living in the mountain (人human+山mountain=仙). A more esoteric approach would be a "mountain man". Anyway, an immortal is someone who does not die. It's that simple. Gods? They live very long, but they can die (in all the world's mythologies I know of). So who, or what doesn't die? Everything seem to die...Except the Tao itself. If you are the Tao, you're immortal! If you're one of the 10000 phenomena, you will die sooner or later. More Chinese again...the "shen" 神 are entities worhty of respect... This word is translated by gods or deities. Also, as you probably know, it is one of the three treasures in inner alchemy.

Just like I wouldn't climb the Himalayas by myself, I would not try such dangerous activity alone...

I live in China. And I have no doubt that lots of pollution is indeed caused by the food industry. (And I would add the meat industry in particular). The same thing is true in other countries anyway. If people can live longer than in other areas of the world, I guess it is because they do exercise until old (taiji, qi gong, badminton, all these soft activities...), and keep a social life. Despite what I said before, there is also the Chinese way of cooking that is better than many others (though the southern French one is good too... ) But I think, and fear that for the next generations the life expectancy will not be so good...

BTW, I think it would be a good idea to give some specific "taoist Chinese", that is to say how to greet a taoist and such. By experience I know this can open many doors.

I heard it too...it is just not true. What is true, however is that common Chinese people don't care about it, nor does their government. But You are the one looking for it, and you can find it. I recommend you avoid big structures, prefer small temples, that is usually where you can have better talks. This being said, in Beijing you should go to the White Cloud Temple, there are priests coming from all over China, that may be pretty interesting. As for the rest, everything have been said in this thread. Good luck in your search.

Couldn't agree more. However, I would like to raise a few points: - in China, and probably other parts of the world, people tend not to care about Buddhism and taoism, except in the most superstitious ways: you buy a Buddha statue or a taoist protective charm, you go to the temple when you have a (usually very materialistic) request, burn lots of incense... But for the philosophy of these traditions? Nada! The "believers" are just not aware of them. On the other hand, the priests, monks of these religions are (well most of the time!) aware of those, but don't pay attention about teaching them to the people. The monastic system has the big problem that it splits spirituality from the normal society; many believe that meditation in just for monks. I think this is no coincidence that the governments emphasize this, including in Taoism. I do believe that any religious system turns quickly into hypocrisy, and I hate to say it, this applies to the eastern systems as well.( This being said, they never were as screwed-up as ours...never heard about inquisition in Buddhism for example). To go back to the idea of consumerism: I think people see "religious practice" (ie: the bai shen拜神）exactly like going to the supermarket. And the priests make the mistake to encourage this kind of behavior. Of course they do; they live because of the "believers". Needless to say, I believe that all this is wrong: it doesn't help Buddhism nor Taoism, nor the people, excepted maybe in a few cases. I say we need to go back to the basics: you're Buddhist, you try to understand the 4 noble truths, you practice meditation, develop the Buddhist virtues in your life. You're Taoist, same; you try to understand the Dao De Jing and other scriptures, you practice inner alchemy, you try to put simplicity and non-action in your life. That's it. (And it's hard) Now, understand that I am not opposed to rituals, temples and stuff. They may be a need for human beings, so why not? Religious taoism, for example, provides a way to keep traditional Chinese culture in general...And rituals can have a powerful effect in the inside. But we have to make a clear distinction between what is essential and what is optional. To quote Lao Zi, "keep the fruit, not the flower" (something like that). I believe that for the next generations, western people may have a better understanding of these traditions. I know I sound like a religious colonialist but I'm not. I've been living in China for a few years now, I am still searching among the "masters", and I have to face the facts. Besides, my hope is that the Chinese themselves get a new interest for their own beautiful traditions, in a genuine soul-searching way. Which could (and should) took us all away from this consumerism crap.

所以，我以为，可能在这里。。。 Sorry, this has nothing to do with the topic, but 以为means "think, believe", BUT with the idea that what you thought or believe was wrong. Kind of: "I believed this or that, but in fact..." It doesn't belong in your sentence. You should use 认为。。。

...You can add more Fact 1: Chuck Norris can see, hear and touch the Tao. Fact 2: Chuck Norris is immortal, he'll live forever. Twice. Fact 3: one day, Chuck Norris saw a crane and a snake fighting each other. The next day, he killed 100 enemies with his bare hands. Just like he did the day before, anyway.

Found this: http://webspace.webring.com/people/da/akrishi/100words/100wordc.htm The text translated in English, with the comments of Zhang Sanfeng (you know, the guy who created taiji quan... joking!) translated as well. Excellent work IMO.

This being asked, I sure make a big difference with the three "religions of the Book" and the others.

Why oppose things that don't have to be in opposition?

Besides all what had been said, I would also add that "heavens" are not so peaceful as we think they are...By "heavens" I mean other realms of existence, including the realm of gods. As for religious taoism, you can see many pictures with 2 different types of gods: some, on one side, have different kinds of weapons, and the others are with scrolls for reading. I think this is a reminder that you should not separate "martial arts" from "literature".

http://www.taoiststudies.org/belgian_taoist_association.html The belgian taoist association. Luckily it's not in French, they are based in the dutch-speaking part of the country, so it's in English

Yes there are temples, associations etc. in Europe: A few links for you: www.taoists.co.uk/ http://www.qingjing.org/ (in French, which is strange, for the temple is in Spain!) http://www.laozhuangtao.com/ (in French again, which is not strange, since this is the French taoist association) http://ataos.populus.ch/ (Swiss taoist association in ....French. Could have been Italian or German, but no it's still in French) All these are about religious/ mystical taoism

4) "qi" does appear in the TT (chapter 10)

Good post, Marblehead! I have a few remarks however: 1) "The four limbs and nine external cavities" does not appear in the TTC itself. It is an interpretation made later by Han Fei Tsi. Which doesn't mean that it is inappropriate, but you could make other interpretations... 2) On the "superman" question...well IMO I have absolutely no doubt in these days there were some people with abilities we would consider today impossible...For the simple reason that people had to be stronger, there was no security. As for meditation, we in our modern age are disabled people. You have 100 more stimuli every day than these people had. This being said, following the taoist path is NOT about having powers of any kind. (supernatural, political, money and so on...) You may well have some of these, (for the first one I don't know...) but they also may be a curse. You use power only if you need them. Not for egotistic reasons. 3) the "wise men of old time" is an allegorical figure, an example for us to follow, but we should not take every word...

Wonderful photos... May this place never be touched (wasted) by man.