baiqi

Hi, although I am no longer in taiji these days, I used to practice this style with one of BK Frantzis students. One of the big differences between the two styles is...Wu style was not meant to be practiced by everyone. It is much harder for lots of reasons (one of them is smaller movements, way more difficult than large ones). Maybe that's a biased view, but I don't see many people doing the Wu style in China (of course there are some). From the martial point of view, Wu style emphasizes throwing your opponent more than the yang style.Which is why you have those leaning postures. (By the way, we are talking about the 吴 style, or the 武 style , also called Hao? I am talking about the first one...)

For those who don't know what I'm talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones This thread is about religious taoism. I don't know if many of you pay attention to it, I know some do, but living in China this is something you cannot really deny its existence. So, I wanted to try to understand it, by examining the meaning of its top deities. Any information, question, or remark is welcome. I will also give my own opinion on what I think these are. Of course, this may or may not be the classical interpretation taoists priests give. First, I see the three pure ones as principles more than spirits. Even if they are shown as humans, there is nothing human in them at all. One of the evidences of that for me is the calendar: - yuan shi tian zun (元始天尊)the Universal Lord of the Primordial Beginning, is worshiped on the day of the winter solstice. - 靈寶天尊 The Universal Lord of the Numinous Treasure is worshiped on the day of the summer solstice. - and finally, 道德天尊 The Universal Lord of the Way and its Virtue, is worshiped on the 15 of the second lunar month in the Chinese calendar.Which is quite, if I make no mistake, between the two solstices. Taoism is obviously not the only religion that celebrates the solstices. Any pagan religion does, and even christians do. The thing is, here, the most important day is the last one, which is a must celebrate day for all taoists of all branches. To me the reason is simple:the Universal Lord of the Primordial Beginning is yin energy (winter, cold, dark and so on), The Universal Lord of the Numinous Treasure is yang energy (summer, therefore heat, light activity, whereas The Universal Lord of the Way and its Virtue is the balances between yin and yang, which as you should know one of the most important things in taoism. Now why do they look "human"? I guess it is a representation of Lao Zi under different forms and periods of his life. Only when he was old he mastered both yin and yang. It is also the concept of trinity: the three origins come from the one. Sounds esoteric doesn't it? More to come...

I am not offended. There is at least one Chinese religion that took the Christian God and mixed it with Chinese beliefs. It's called yi guan da (I kuan-tao), and it exists in Taiwan in particular. (Not in the mainland, for political reasons I won't deatail.) "God" is the same idea as the "Dao", excepted that: - The Dao isn't a person, nor anything like it. One does not define it. It is not a ruler of the universe, more a void principle doing everything, by being empty. On the other hand, the Christian God is very "full" - You don't pray to the Dao, it won't answer you! There are (lots of) other gods you pray to in religious Daoism. - It doesn't send you to hell if you did wrong, nor in heaven in the opposite case. - It did not send its son on earth... - there is not opposite to it, like a Christian "devil". Again, that doesn't mean that there is no "evil" but it is only a relative thing. The Dao is always neutral. - it is not jealous - you don't need to call it "almighty", actually, Lao Zi said you could call it "small", and Zhuang Zi said you could find it even in excrements. (everywhere means...absolutely everywhere) I believe however that all mystics referred to only one thing, whatever the place and time...But it was distorted by the views of common men.

@ Jk, this will be soon discussed in another topic.

@ YM: thanks a lot! @ all: forget what I said about the relationships with the three dantians!

"it would be interesting to find the relation between the 3 pure ones and the tan tien. I know it's a one to one relation, although I never remember which is related with which :-(. But I suspect there might be practices that connect the two, the external representation with the internal field." Well, IMO, the Universal Lord of the Primordial Beginning is yin energy, should be lower dantian, the Universal Lord of the Numinous Treasure is yang energy, therefore should be middle dantian (or heart, so to speak), and The Universal Lord of the Way and its Virtue should be the upper dantian. If this isn't correct, I welcome practitioners of religious taoism to correct me! "The Three Pure Ones are envisioned both during ritual and meditation, and they are embodied as three vapours (green, yellow and white) in the three dantian. " The colors seem a bit strange to me... Anyway, with which dantian are they associated? I'd like to try that for personal practice. Thx in advance.

This guy's teachings seem to be "real taoism", if there is such a thing. ...Thx, you know how to post good internet links, you geek!

Destruction and creation are two parts of the same process. So is light and darkness, day and night, yin and yang, heat and cold... Which one do you choose? The one that is adapted to the situation. Sometimes you need to create, sometimes to destroy! I say that because reading your thread, I had the feeling that you said something like: creation= good, destruction=bad. This is just not true, both exist in nature, and both are needed,what is bad is to destroy what you should not, or create what you should not. "I think the diffrents is that in physics nothing can be possibly created, only recycled. And in Tao there is only creation. Infinite creation only. That is the nature of Tao? When I die, I believe my body is being abosrbed by the universe yes I become one with for the eternity that it lasts, but I'm also recycled as many things. How does this differ to Tao believe?" It doesn't differ. Taoists have different beliefs on what happens after death, yours sounds good to me. Now about doing good and bad... It is right that reading taoist texts you have the feeling they don't care much about morality. On of the Zen main texts (信心铭, if you can read Chinese it is in the appropriate section of this forum...) says that "clarity of mind appears when there is no thought about good and evil" and such. This, for people of any culture is rather disturbing. We are told to do good and avoid evil. The taoists (early ones) attacked Confucianism for that, but we could do the same with Christianity and any moral code around the world. No wonder lots of people looked down on them. I believe you have to look at nature to understand this: there is no "bad" nor "good" in nature. There is creation and destruction,or ultimately none of them: just changes. But nothing that judges. Or if it does, it has a human-like conscience. But this doesn't mean ethics should be given up. Depravity won't get you closer to the Tao. You'll only hurt yourself and others. I think the best ethical behavior is: 1) unlearn what you've learnt. Some "moral values" are simply stupid. This is probably one of the hardest things to do for most men. Which is why taoists emphasized "lose virtue" so much. 2) get another ethical code. Based on experience this time, on what is really right to do, from the heart. You may find that some of your education was right, other wrong. You have to have enough courage to see the truth inside. What you said: " But I never blindly believe anything and challenging my own believes is a daily hobby lol." indicates you're on the path! A Tao man is "good" to the people like the sun, or a fire, bringing light and heat to all. But not because he wants to; he does it spontaneously. (However, to get to that state of being, you may need to do "good deeds" calculating them, sometimes to see they're not so good!). The sun can also be "bad", if you stay too long outside in the summer...But you don't blame it for that?

2 thumbs up! Thanks a lot

Hi all I am answering this thread although it was nearly forsaken...I did not want to open another one for the same topic... So, to put it simply: I have recently become vegetarian, (a few months ago) and I used to enjoy eating meat before... It was not really linked to my practice of taoism, although you can't really separate anything from it, right? Let's say it came quite naturally as a result of disgust. Disgust from what? Meat? Not in the beginning (it came later though...) Disgust from the whole of the meat industry. The way animals are treated before being slaughtered (which sometimes seems the softest part!),the pollution, the famine in the third world resulting from it...I finally said "no way I take part in this anymore" Maybe if I had lived in older times I would never have become vegetarian. Hunting is ok for me (I don't...), animals are hunting, it is part of nature. But the meat industry, no f###ing way! So about taoism being vegetarian... I would say not exactly, as a general rule. But taoists should be sensitive to nature, and therefore to animals. Many stories about Lie zi regard animals close to humans, and other stories depict a golden age when people lived in harmony with animals. So even if it is not such a strict rule, let say it is close to it. Besides, the Chinese are eating much more meat than before! And so does any "developed"country. Now with the "daozang" (taoist canon): I kinda don't like this way of putting things. It seems to me dogmatic. Just like some Buddhist ( big influence here...) sects, I feel too individualistic (you may say rebel if you like ) to abide by them: if this book says this, I must do it... However, when I see so many people eating so much meat, destroying their health( at some point you do...), considering animals as "things", just for the pleasure...I'd be glad if these guys believed the words of the Daozang without question! Unfortunately, the real ethics comes from inside, although external rules are useful for immature beings. I cannot condemn meat eaters for the simple reason that I was one not such a long time ago! However, I do recommend people to eat less meat, and even become vegetarians if they can. I'm not making proselytism about religion, "spirituality" and such, but I do it for vegetarianism! This because of what eating meat in an industrial society implies... Let me put it that way: I don't think you are criminal if you eat meat(usually it comes as a normal thing nobody questions), I think you're doing good if you give it up, even partially (100 good karma points according to my own cult ) Be well

Thanks a lot. And here comes another one: 白雲朝頂上。甘露灑須彌 " white snow shows up on the top, sweet dew sprinkles on mt Meru" I understand the expression "Mt Merru' as being the brain... Do you agree with this? I am also wondering about the "white snow" and the "sweet dew": seen them in other alchemical texts, but don't know exactly what they refer to.

Same feeling in (southern) China. And it's good

。。。我不是华裔，我是一个住在中国的法国人。 我的中文名字是白麒。。。

eeer... Nobody is interested?

Well, as I said in another post, the modern world will do anything to avoid the people follow a spiritual path. It would simply mean its end. Even if there are proofs, or at least evidences, people will not recognize them. Media will magnify fake "gurus" or people getting nuts because of qi gong. The people themselves will prefer not to know, cause it will help them feel secure. In the west, qi gong is a strange exotic stuff coming from an inferior culture, in China the young see it as something for thr old people only, way less important than getting their place in the rat race for jobs... That's the way it is. It is sad because people would definitely benefit from it. But by experience, it is useless to try to "wake up" somebody who doesn't want to. Only those who already have an open mind have an opportunity to learn.

I'm not sure about reincarnation, but it seems a reasonable belief, way better than the Christian belief of eternal heaven or hell... However I sure disagree with those who have a linear interpretation of human soul evolution, may they be bouddhists, hindus, druidic pagan or whatever. The idea for them is: you start as plant, you go on as a very "basic" animal, then a mammal, then a human, then another one, and in the end you become a Buddha. (translate the word "Buddha" by the appropriate word according to the religion) This is true (until the man level) if we talk linear time. It is called evolution. But, I believe buddhahood or immortality outside of time, therefore outside evolution. I don't see really how we humans are more evolved than animals. According to what criteria? Oh, yes, intellect, ability to change and even destroy our environment...But these criteria are man-made... So this "old soul stuff" is pointless to me. Just my opinion anyway.

@ Athanor: Well, I just don't have enough knowledge of physics to say what kind of energy goes out of my hand...I just know that there is something... By the way, qi is often translated into "energy" which is correct but not complete: other Chinese words would fit the definition. @ fizix: I don't give a shit about proving anything to others. I want proofs, but only for myself. And I am not really interested in gaining superpowers either. (Although if it were possible...I would use them )

For technical reasons, I can't see the video. But if I understand, it is close to an experience I did to check out the reality of Qi. It turned positive, and I think you can try it at home. (yes it is safe) You need: - a needle - something to plant the needle vertically. I personally use a fruit. - a sheet of aluminium paper. You plant the needle in the fruit (or anything else), then you cut a square in the aluminium paper. You put the aluminium paper on the needle, right in the center. (hardest part...) Once there is no motion, you slowly put your hand close to the aluminium paper. Make sure there is now wind in the room you are. Then you use your intent to "push" the stuff. Your qi should go out from the laogong point (center of the palm). It will spin. Ok, now you tell me...Is this what the video shows? If yes, it is NOT fake. It is real and you can do it as well. It's a good way to show that a kind of electro magnetic energy goes out of our bodies...and can explain lots of things about hands healing and so on. I said electro-magnetic energy...well I also tried with normal paper, it does not work. Paper stops electrons, aluminium does not. I am not versed enough in science, but there is definitely something electric out of our palms is this what the old chinese called qi? Could be... PS: if anyone tries this funny experiment, I'd like to hear from them

Good, this is a thing I can refer to: I didn't need to read any newspaper...I personally met someone who one versed in spirituality, had a very developed sensitivity to energies surrounding, and was, I believe, dedicated to help others. Last time I heard about this guy, he was in a mental asylum. He probably is still there. So, I also started to ask myself the same kind of questions. "What can we do to help spread healthy, safe spiritual seeking" I think this is an excellent question, not just for such pathologic cases. We could also talk about genuine soul searchers whose teachings were turned into fanatical and dogmatic religions... One thing: safe spiritual seeking. To me, there is no such thing. Spirituality is a "warrior" thing. Read about any serious soul searcher's life: there is no such thing as security...Sorry However, we can reduce the risks. Driving a car is dangerous, but there are safer ways to drive than others. I think one of the key things is clarity about what a spiritual is and what it isn't. Examples: - following a spiritual path does NOT make you healthier, although it may indirectly help you cure. - following a spiritual path does NOT make you richer, more powerful, loved and so on. There would be lots of things to add, but I think this is already a starting point: ask yourself WHY and WHAT you are searching, and be 100 percent honest with yourself. Also, I must be clear about it: the modern world HATES spirituality. Why so? Because it would die if people were actually doing soul searching. Imagine how many factories would close if people stopped to buy things they don't really need... So when you start, or if you already have, think that you will be under attack: not physically (can happen though...), but mainly mentally. By the people around you, maybe your family members. By their words, their call to "come back into reality" and such. By yourself, the part of you who is scared to leave what you knew real...and so on. As I said, this is a warrior thing. Oh, and I forgot the media: it is very unlikely they emphasize the good side of spiritual search. Rather, they will emphasize the pathological cases such as this one. What we can do to spread healthy spirituality? Simple, but not easy, follow a spiritual path and become ourselves balanced, happy individuals. That's the best ad we can do for it.

@ Birch: You know what? This question of a shen or soul or stuff surviving after death is a kind of tormenting question. And it shouldn't. I used to have a few OBE, which means that consciousness can live independently from the physical body. But for how long? Hours for sure, but that's far from immortality... All cultures have an idea of something after death. But we could argue that it is based on the fear of it and not from the facts. However some facts are true, in my opinion. Ultimately I believe you have a chance to be one with the Dao after death. In which case, you are no longer here, nor your shen, soul or whatever. But it is real peace anyway.

@ forestofemptiness: That is right, the word "forget" is frequently used by the taoists. The seated meditation practices are sometimes called "sit and forget" 坐忘. Also, you have many stories about taoists "forgetting" who they socially are, and consequently remember who they actually are! This is common in Zhuangzi and Liezi stories... The character wang 忘, "forget" is made of two others: 亡, "dead, corpse, death and so on", and 心, "heart" or emotional mind. I think the character itself gives us a hint: it is not about forgetting what we did yesterday...it is more about taming emotions. In this context of course, in common Chinese it does mean forget something, and is rather negative. 忘言also seems to mean this: don't bind yourself to concepts. Once you got the idea and put it in practice, keeping the concept is useless. (we tend to do that a lot in western philosophy) Ok, now I have a question about this verse: 普化一聲雷 "Everywhere we hear the sound of the thunder" Does anyone have any idea of what this "thunder" is about? This is still obscure to me.

I didn't read all of the answers, so I just answer as if there was no answer at all, sorry if I repeat things that have been said. First, I believe that buddhism and taoism in China have been together for such a long time that it is really hard to give a pure "taoist" or "buddhist" answer. You may have answers between two different taoists schools more different than from a taoist and buddhist school...depending on which one you are talking about! For exemple, some buddhists from the zen school will deny the very idea of reincarnation, whereas others will put it at the center of their teaching... So I better give my own feeling on the questions Impermanance is...undeniable to me. I don't see anything that lasts forever. Everything changes. You don't have to be from any religion/philosophy to see that, you just need to look around. Both taoism and buddhism agree with that I believe. For karma, well, it is a little harder to be so categorical. However my own experiences shown me that it also existed: you pay for what you did, in "good" or "bad", although this goes far beyond classical morality...Really hard to explain. For rebirth, well again, I have no doubt that there is always rebirth...but not necessarily yours. Example: when plants die, they are absorbed by the earth (and other animals). Then the earth gives birth to other plants...So there is a cycle of death and rebirth, but the same plant is not going to be born again. I think what is true with matter is the same with more subtle elements of the being. (mind, psyche, spirit and so on...) Why try to help other sentient beings? Because imo everything is connected, so ... That doesn't mean you should suffer for the "good" of someone because you were told that this would be rewarded. This is okay for kids, not for mature beings. hope I brought something sensible to these good questions!

Mmh, right, let's say I enjoy it for its concisness. I don't mistake simplicity with easiness though. So could you please help us decode it?