forestofsouls

Darin, That is a pretty inspiring. You don't feel calmer, more integrated, wiser, cleaner? Assuming I undertand correctly, you have: 1. Revitalized your jing and converted jing into qi. Doesn't this make you feel more vital, stronger, alive, vivid? 2. Converted your qi into shen. Doesn't this make you more clear, aware, awake, lucid? 3. Converted shen into kong. Empty? How did you keep from nocturnal emissions?

I've recently added Bill Bodri's Nine Bottle Breath to my daily routing. I noticed that some people here have been practicing this, among other methods, in the past. Many people were just starting in past threads. My questions is, has any one stuck to this (or any) of Bodri's practices, and what happened?

Keep in mind I use the word meditation in the common American-English sense of the term. Many would consider what I do concentration practices. I use object-based meditation, anapana and vipassana. The first, I concentrate on the breath, and on the second, I concentrate on the body. When I do Tai Chi, my objects are different depending on what I'm working on. I measure quality in two significant ways: focus (i.e. how long I can stay on the object) and subjective quality (i.e. the level of mental clarity vs. mental dullness). A third factor would be equanimity (i..e if I can let whatever arises and fall away without clinging or aversion). I have found that object-less meditation, such as "just sitting there" or "just letting what arises arise" results in mental dullness for me. I DO think it is important to let what arises arise, but personally, I need a target area to place my attention on. As to what I'm aiming at: a clear, concentrated mind that can observe any objects that arise and dissolve with equanimity. Applying this state of mind to the world produces insight for me. Additionally, I am counting on the fact that over time, my chattering mind will stop completely (thus far, it has quieted and weakened, but it is still distracting). In the meantime, I have received too many benefits to even list.

As it says in the Classics, "Not too much, not too little." I was at a point where I was meditating two hours a day, plus about thirty minutes of Tai Chi. However, the quality of the meditation was quite poor. I spent most of my time in a dullish state of torpor. A lot of Taoists I was coming across in books or otherwise were saying that a few quality minutes of practice is infinitely better than hours of quality practice. They suggested starting with five high quality minutes, one if necessary, and building from there. I cut my practice in half, and am slowly building back up, emphasizing quality over quantity.

Wayfarer, Have you tried simple awareness/vipassana sitting meditation? Applying the logic of the elements, if fire is your problem, you can counter that with water. Vipassana-inspired meditation is very much like that, and if practiced diligently over a period of time, tends to cool you off. I can attest to that personally. My personal starting point for this technique, and recommended book is Mindfulness in Plain English. It is published for free here: http://www.realization.org/page/namedoc0/mipe/mipe_0.htm SN Goenka offers 10 day vipassana courses for free as well. www.dhamma.org. I've only done one course but I thought it was remarkable. BK Frantzis methods are similarly based in his Opening the Energy Gates of the Body and his Taoist Methods of Water Meditation Series, but I have not practiced them personally.

Mr. Denty, with all due respect, and keep in mind I don't know you but through these messages, but you don't seem to have the faintest clue about human psychology. You have been appealing to people's baser desires for superpowers for some time now, holding out an alleged teaching as though it is the secret key people need to unlock their cultivation practices. But to toss in something like this shows that you are aiming for the truly gullible, because any one with a bit of sense knows that even if this was true, no one would believe it. And those who would believe it are quite foolish. If I were a chi master, I don't think these are the people I would want to attract. I would want to attract some one with a solid foundation of moral intergrity and common sense, some one reasonable and sober with the stick-to-it-iveness to receive and practice a teaching. People like this will simply not respond to your messages. There is a secret key to unlocking one's cultivation practice, and its not in a book, a teacher, or a technique. The secret key is effort, repeated and sincere effort to develop oneself. Modern American culture especially is keen on the quick fix, but anyone worth his or her salt as a cultivator should know that there is no quick fix. It is work, hard work. One needs to be diligent and attentive, as often as possible. Buddha laid this out in his Eightfold Path, which can be summarized as sila (moral discipline), samadhi (mental discipline) and panna (wisdom). In the West, it is called the Magnum Opus, the Great Work. The key word here is "work". There have been hardly any words about your teacher teaching anything of real value, such as the nature of emptines, or compassion to living beings, or overcoming one's ingrained habits. It is not, as displayed in these messages, a path with heart. It seems to be about appealing to desire and becoming godlike. This is NOT the goal of any true cultivation path. Most of what you have written are easily faked tricks. For example, in many societies shamans often extract foreign objects that are considered the cause of an illness. A close observer will see shamans insert these objects into their mouths or hands before magically pulling them from a patient's body. But the true value of cultivation doesn't lie in these things, but in making us fuller human beings. The reason this bothers me is because many people here started to become open to the possibility that there is more to our human potential than commonly considered, and such an opening is a great thing on this path. To then undermine one's credibility with statements like this will only impede the flowering of this curiousity.

Nicely put, Rin.

I've heard the "path" decribed as a series of concentric circles. At the outer edges, where people find their entry (often through religion), there is much difference. However, as one draws near the center, there is much more similarity. Who's to say that enlightenment isn't a spectrum including all of these things? For instance, Glenn Morris used to say that enlightenment is a biological process, which involves developing the (subtle) body and inner energies. This is not unlike the reports of Taoists who use qigong for immortality. Others, such as many Buddhist practicioners, tend to focus on purifying the mind through attention, concentration, and mindfulness. Yet some Buddhists consider the body as unimportant, a corpse one carries around. Why not both? Viewing the body, mind, emotions, etc. as an undifferentiated specutrum of energies as opposed to fixed entities, this seems to be a very plausible view. A "complete" enlightenment might entail a purified (i.e. relaxed, open, dynamic) bodily energy (jing?), a "purified" emotional/mental energy (qi?), and a "purified" state of awareness (shen?). An "enlightened" being might then be compassionate, energerized, attentive, saintly and living moment-to-moment. They may be physically capable, emotionally open, and mentally sound. They would cultivate their minds and their bodies, knowing that one affects and conditions the other. Of course, not standing from the viewpoint of enlightenment, who can really say?

It's been said/taught that when one cultivates, latent karma becomes manifest. Taken psychologically, we can understand this to mean that when one begins to quiet one's mind, our deep mental habits begin to bubble up. For instance, just sitting still tends to jostle the habit of restless moving. Taken literally, this can mean that latent illnesses, bad luck spots, and all the rest may come to the fore so that they can be processed and disposed of. It's the same principle on a larger scale. I've had very few teachers, but they agree on one point: the higher you go, the harder it gets, and the bigger the obstacles become. Personally, I've found this to be true. Many things about myself that I didn't want to face, my personal weaknesses I had always ignored or rationalized came to the fore when I started meditating/Tai Chi. For example, I spent many years smoking, and ignoring the negative effects of this habit. I lied, I rationalized, etc. But when I became a little more aware, I observed what it did to me, how my muscles tightened, how it made my throat feel, how my lungs didn't like it. Quitting smoking was/is a very illuminating experience. I understand a lot more about will and addiction, which we all lack and have. Other example are very humbling, embarrasing situations that were good to rub off a bit of ego, even if they hurt at the time. In Buddhism, it is said that in the land of the gods, meditation is easy, life is blissful, and things are very smooth. But the gods can never reach enlightenment, because they never learn how to bear suffering.

sean, The quotes were in reference to this exchange from our earlier post regarding the Taoist "code": QUOTE ME: The real Taoist classics were written in Chinese, which is a complex language, in a specific cultural context, with specific symbols. Many written texts (the Bible, the Buddhist sutras, the Tao te ching) throughout history are accompanied by an oral tradition that passes from a living mouth to a living ear. As books translated by Western academics, they generally become texts that espouse a practical quietism. As translated by practicing Taoists with access to the living tradition, they tell a far different story. SEAN: Can you give me an example of the latter type of text? Just curious where you are coming from here. I wouldn't necessarily say that powers are a pre-requisite to enlightenment. Certainly having powers doesn't mean you're enlightened. The literature is full of warnings about powers, and the cultivation of power for its own sake, as traps along the way. Some people may become so fascinated with these sorts of powers that they may stray from the path. I do have some material suggesting that these things WILL come about if you practice properly, perhaps this is a question for another thread.

Swami J has a five minute meditation CD, in which you hear his voice saying how many minutes have passed. http://www.swamij.com/cd-timer-practice.htm If you need weird times, you can always record yourself the same way.

Just a few quick examples, just to give the gist: In this first examples, I cannot put in the Chinese as I don't have the font skills: "In ancient Taoist sutras the primitive character [inserts charecter] is used to represent chi. If we disassemble this character, [part of character] the ancient character for [another character], meaning none. The [points under the character] has the same meaning as [another character], fire. In other words, chi [1st character], means no firel. What is meant by fire? Sexual desires, lust-filled affections and attractions, restless, bustling thoughts and a restless mind are all connoted by fire. In tghe absence of this rapidly burning and all consuming fire, one would be filled with vitality. In Chinese medicine, fire that is moving restlessly is called secondary fire, whereas fire in the correct position and proper condition is known as ruling fire. When one has ruling fire and is full of potential energy, the latent chi can then be induced." Huai-Chin Nan, Tao & Longevity p.9 "Mencius, a philosopher regarded by Confucians as the Second Sage (Confucius being the First Sage), also provided invaluable exhortations on the practice and theory of Chi Kung: 'The will is the commander of chi. Chi is the totality of the body.' Clear and direct though this statement may be, it still needs som explanation in order for the layman to appreciate Mencius' remarkable insight. In may be expanded as follows: Our willpower can control the flow of energy. When we thing of a certai norgan or area of our body, energy will flow to that part. Energy is tghe basic ingredient of our whole body. All our organs, tissues, and cells as well as all our physiological functions and mental activities as the products of energy." Wong Kiew Kit, The Art of Chi Kung, p.10-11. "[speaking of the Tao Te Ching] [t]hese misunderstandings begin with the common misreading of the title's meaning: often interpreted as a Book of Virtue, the Book about the Way, or the Virtuous Way. They speak as if the text were merely a philosophy on moral philosophy. The true title conveys that this is abook about the Infinite Power outside, surrounding, and penetrating all things--- Tao, and the portion of that power that resides in each human being--- Te. The full title "Tao Te Ching" implies that the words inside will reveal how to connect Tao and Te, or that part of God within us to the greater whole of Infinity. To interpret the book as anything less, strips it of its real intent and removes its true potency." Waysun Liao, Nine Nights with the Taoist Master, p.9

Hello. I just registered here. I practice Tai Chi and meditation, though I still consider myself a beginner at both.

Cosmology isn't all about what's out there. It's all about what's in here. What you might call a "magic trick" and write off as ancient superstition might be part of a teaching more powerful than we previusly imagined. These "tricks" may show an open door to a greater human potential, and a world far more rich and complex then we imagined. If so, then it is like using an airplane to haul a vegetable cart: a waste of potential. The suggestion that our worldview may be incomplete is indeed a frightful one, because we do not and perhaps never will have a complete worldview that provides us with safety and comfort. It is far easier to dismiss these claims outright than to keep an open mind and see what we can see. What might be considered extraordinary powers may be signposts to something quite significant. Tingles, etc. have been used by Taoist cultivators just in this way: as signposts on the path. They can not be forced, or chased for their own accord, but this does not mean they are not significant. The real Taoist classics were written in Chinese, which is a complex language, in a specific cultural context, with specific symbols. Many written texts (the Bible, the Buddhist sutras, the Tao te ching) throughout history are accompanied by an oral tradition that passes from a living mouth to a living ear. As books translated by Western academics, they generally become texts that espouse a practical quietism. As translated by practicing Taoists with access to the living tradition, they tell a far different story.

I'm not sure there is such thing as "objective". People who are generally predisposed to belief tend to believe with very little evidence. People who are generally predisposed not to believe usually set a very high burden of proof. I've noticed that many people, including myself, prefer to follow our pre-mapped worldviews. We decide, then see rather than the other way around. One of the first rules I was taught on this path was to verify everything for myself. I've found this to be quite helpful in maintaining the balance between naivete and constant skepticism.

spyrelx, $500? I wouldn't even come to New York to pick up the money if you were giving it away. With air flight (I'm not sure if that'll even cover air fare), hotel reservations, and time-in-transit (away from my family, who I don't get to see enough of as it is), it wouldn't be worth MY time, and I'm no master. No one has to believe that people can do amazing things with chi. You're better off NOT believing it, unless you've experienced it yourself, because direct, personal experience is the only thing that really counts.

"Problem is what is 'chi'? How does Master Liao 'demonstrate' how chi should 'feel'? Alot of stuff that some people call 'chi', because they don't understand what is going on, is actually body mechanics, conditioning, etc. So I think we should put some context around the examples. Good thread, btw, not trying to poo poo it right off the bat. T" Sorry, I haven't gotten the quote thing figured out. What we did was we all gathered in a circle. Master Liao had us put our hands out in the tai chi ball stance, which is standing shoulder width apart, with our palms facing one another, perpendicular to the floor. Sort of like holding a beach ball in front of you. He placed his hands around my hands, without touching. Then he said, let me know when you feel something. Mind you, I was a chi skeptic at this time. I could feel vague light buzzings, but nothing substantial. What I did was try to keep an open, empty mind and a relaxed body. I was curious, but quite sceptical. What happened was it felt like suddenly I was hooked up to a power generator. When I was younger, I once grabbed a refrigerator that wasn't fully grounded, and was mildly electocuted. It was similar, but it felt good. It started out vague, then I felt a lot of pressure as though I was submerged under water. I said nothing, and the feelings got very strong. Then the pressure gave way and it felt like liquid electicity was flowing throughout my body, and it felt as real and vivid as an oak table. I also felt my lower dan tien and upper dan tien swelling and opening, and it was ecstatic. It also felt like there was a fine electrical wire connecting the two dan tiens. I felt giddy and high, and couldn't stop smiling. It also felt there was an actual ball between my hands. The main thought I had was "Oh my God I can't beleive this is real!" Master Liao said that the object was to cultivate oneself so that one could feel that way without a master "charging you up". To some extent, we all feel chi: when we are well rested and feel alive. But this was magnified many times over. I would say chi is energy, much like electrical energy. I've been told that some people can hear it, some people can see it, but most feel it. When talking about chi, I mean feeling electrical energy with no technological source that feels as vivid as physical objects. I agree with what you say, T. I firmly believe that most of the stuff on chi out there is imagined, wrong, or mistaken. Which is why I wanted to start a thread, to try to separate out the phonies. Now I'm not saying that Master Liao is the ONLY possible source of authentic chi exercises, just one. I think Wong Kiew Kit may be another, but I don't have direct experience and so I can't say. I hear Yan Xin does some amazing things, but once again, I don't have direct experience of it.