forestofsouls

That makes more sense. Not to say I agree, because on some level, I think spiritual cultivation is of a different quality. I'll have to let that cook awhile, see what comes up. But it reminds me of the old Tai Chi joke: The student and his master were practicing tai chi for several years. The student practiced long and hard but found that he had learned very little. So he asked his master, "Sifu, how long does it take to learn Tai Chi?" His Sifu replied, "Ten years." The student frowned. "But I have been practicing so long and so hard!" "Ah," said his Sifu, "For you... twenty years." I do agree that a good financial foundation makes spiritual cultivation easier, at least in places where there isn't a strong monastic tradition in effect. The teachers I've had have always said that one must first straighten out one's ordinary life before spiritual cultivation is possible: you have to attend to the bills, your family, and so forth. Oddly, since I've focused on spiritual goals over material, my material life has improved.

I think your personal wealth shows where your aims lie. Protestants have justified their wealth in spiritual terms for years. Never mind that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. At the core of every major spiritual tradition is the idea of renunciation, of withdrawing on a certain level from the world and the things of the world. The cultivator par excellence is the monk, and in every tradition a monk takes a vow of poverty. Theravedan Buddhist monks aren't even allowed to touch money. In both certain Buddhist and Biblical traditions, it is said that people who have money have it so they may be free from the physical world and cultivate. I have yet to meet a single wealthy person who is interested in spiritual cultivation. I've met many wealthy people who are interested in making more money. But then, maybe I'm running in the wrong circles. Perhaps true wealth, as Thomas Merton once wrote, is not measured by what one has, but by what one can do without.

I think people are inherently suspicious of people who charge for spiritual information. In the West, there is often a clear separation between the spiritual and material aspects of life. There is also a history of religious figures abusing their spiritual authority for personal gain. This stems from modern Evangelicals to the Catholic Church charging for dispensations to gurus like Osho who had a Rolls Royce for every day of the month. Many Westerners may feel that money corrupts, and mixing money with spiritual teaching, or charging for spiritual teaching, strikes people as wrong and brings to mind the highly publicized news stories of religious leaders taking a lot of money from the unwary. Many of us have had experiences with people fakes, scamsters, and frauds in this area. When some one who is offering spiritual goods talks about money, we often assume rightly or wrongly that the person is really after our money and doesn't care about spiritual teachings. A man cannot serve both God and money as the old Bible saying goes. On the flip side is the material question. Many people expect spiritual teachers to offer their fruits free of charge. The problem with this is that spiritual teachers have physical needs--- food, clothing, shelter like everyone else. If a teacher comes into town to teach, who is to pay for the plane ticket, the hotel, the reserved space, and the food? Then there is the question of skillful means. Many believe that a person will not value something unless they pay a lot of money for it. There is an old Slavic story about a man who bought hot peppers mistaking them for sweet fruit. But he sat down and ate every one, until his face was red and tears were running down his eyes because he had paid for them. If some one pays for a teaching, they may be more likely to put that teaching into practice. Of course, some teachers, most notably Theradedan Buddhists, offer their teaching for dana. If some one believes the teaching has value, they pay after receiving the teaching. No payment is expected, but it is accepted. On the one hand, I don't blame people for being wary of their money. If they gave their money to every spiritual authority who came along, everyone would be broke. On the other hand, I don't think that some one should be automatically condemned because they ask for payment. Spiritual people have physical needs, too. I think Bill Bodri strikes a good balance with his materials. Although I disdain the tone of his website, he offers a lot of stuff for free. You can read his free materials, judge for yourself if he knows what he's talking about, and then buy his other items if you choose. Just like I wrote to seandenty previously, people would probably be more accepting if individuals came to a site like this, established a rapport first, and then presented their offerings. Wayfarer64 advertises his book on this site, and has never been condemned. But he posts here often, and we know he's not here just to make a sale. Just one person's opinion.

Grand, What's the deal with this wudang group? What form do they practice? Do they do push hands? I'm moving to Cheyenne in a few months and need to find some competant tai chi people since I won't be around my school for a while. There are a few Tai Chi schools in CO, and WuDang caught my eye. One of my first meditation books was "Mindfulness in Plain English." Bhante G described it as having this huge granite wall and this little chisel. You chip, chip, chip. Eventually, parts of the wall begin to fall away. Larry Rosenberg described anapanba (breath meditation) like this: Focus on the breath. When your mind wanders, gently return to the breath. Repeat 1,000,000,000 times.

Lifting the Sky. Carrying the Moon. Pushing Mountains.

I think we all pass through this stage. Atr first, we're excited, and we're trying a lot of different things. Then we find that is approach does not lead to progress, and we begin to settle into a few things, a little older and wiser for the journey. My results, overall, are a complete change in my life. When I started this path, I was bitter, angry, lonely and cynical, I was completely asleep, and my thoughts were out of control. I suffered from insomnia, restlessness, and bouts of depression. Now I am relaxed, happy, and married. I have broken my addictions to tv and smoking. I drink very little. I am rarely sick, need less sleep, and feel generally pretty good. I have become a better driver, incidentally, because I don't speed and don't really care if some one else wants to get ahead of me. I have learned that the universe is far bigger, and more mysterious, than I ever could have imagined. I can work a full day and come home and be with my family without being exhausted or drained. I'm no longer in a hurry most days. I practice my tai chi form (Chen Man Ching Yang Short Form, single form practice), a few qigong techniques from Master Wong Kiew Kit (3 techniques total, 1 per sessions), and seated vipassana meditation. I've tried many of these other techniques. They didn't work for me.

What are you aims? There are allegedly many types of qi gong. There is medical qi gong, Buddhist qi gong, taoist qi gong; qi gong for health, qi gong for healing, qi gong for spiritual attainment. First, the general disclaimer. I don't think, and many would agree, that you can learn from a book. Books can present general information for everyone, yet everyone is different. They don't answer your questions, they cannot correct your posture. The worst thing I encountered with books was too much information. I wanted to try everything, instead of taking the time to patiently cultivate one or two things. I learned through trial and experience that two components are necessary to any qi gong. You need to be able to relax as much as possible. I didn't understand this in the beginning, and I ended up hurting myself. The second thing is mental focus. It's too easy in qi gong, or anything else, to let the mind wander while the body moves. This will lead you nowhere. If you cannot afford a teacher, I would encourage you to look up simple relaxation/mental concentration exercises on the internet. I think the best ones involve systematically going through your muscles and relaxing them. Other good exercises involve watching the natural breath. By way of books, the best books that I've come across are: 1. The Art of Chi Kung by Wong Kiew Kit. This book is VERY simple. This is the best qi gong I could find personally, and the only qi gong I practice outside of my tai chi forms. 2. The Way of Energy by Lam Kam Chuen. Standing still practice. You can get a feel fairly quickly for inner power. However, I stopped doing this when I started to practice Tai Chi. I have recently returned to standing practice only after having a lot of instruction and practice on the forms involved, and having had a lot of practice relaxing and focusing. Of course, when I first started this I did too much too quickly. Now, older and wiser, I'm proceeding more slowly. 3. Qigong Empowerment by Shou-Yu Liang and Wen-Ching Wu. This book gives a lot of information on qi gong. It more encyclopedic than practical. I wouldn't try to learn from this one. Remember Sturgeon's Law applies to qi gong as well: 90% of everything is crud.

Its not odd. Many women want to BE (or at least FEEL) beautiful like the yoga teacher. I thought it was odd when I used to look at the magazine racks. On the cover of a men's magazine, you would have beautiful women. On the cover of women's magazine, you have beautiful women. However, the men's material is often more related to attracting/getting the woman, whereas the women's material is more related to becoming the beautiful woman.

Actually, it means "New order for the ages." The new order in this case is a government built on philosophical principles rather than the existing monarchies and such things in Europe. The American government took the ideals of Enlightenment philosophy and created a new government. The founders believed they were doing something completely new and different. Masonic lodges were places were the ideals of liberty, equality, civic duty, etc. were spread. New world order would be "novus ordo mundi." Most spiritual traditions tell us to look within, not without.

This is synchronous because I just took a seminar on this this last weekend to boost my Tai Chi practice. We learned a few dynamic qigong techniques followed by a more spontaneous chi flow. According to Sifu Wong, the dynamic portion of qigong is to generate chi. Then the free-er portion allows the qi to circulate. Anyone interested in learning from a live master can look here. I'd be happy to answer any questions.

I went to see a stage magician once in college. The first thing he asked were for people who has already been hypnotized on stage before. Of all the people on stage (some of them left, and he said "They weren't deep enough"), one seemed authentically hypnotized and the rest were "hamming it up". Being in front of a lot of people is either energizing or terrifying, and I suspect that playing along with the hypnotist is a good outlet for either. I don't know a lot about NLP, but some of their stuff makes sense. For instance, they suggest if you want some one to have a favorable memory of you, you have them recall and tell you about a pleasent time they had. Then they'll associate that emotion with you. But I also know, after studying the workings of my own mind for a few years, that any change is hard, especially a drastic change. My mind and body are creatures of habit, and wish to follow the patterns already carved into them (i.e. "skandhas"). It gets to the point where the body/mind can operate without any attention (like when we're on autopilot going to work), which is why a lot of people in my opinion can drift through life on a low level of attention. What I've seen is that our habits are formed by repetition. If you think/act/feel in a similar away over and over again you create a pattern in yourself. The solution is also reptition, repeated efforts. This comes home when one attempts sitting meditation: at first, the mind careens about as is its habit. The solution is to return time and again to one's mental anchor. Over time, you can develop concentration. I'm skeptical of sudden changes--- they usually precede an inevitable backslide. Regarding the woman: how do you know she wasn't an NLP plant, put in to promote a catharsis in others?

I've watched some of these Derren Brown videos. First off, I would admit that they're fun and entertaining. But a lot of the people he "suggests" things too strike me as though they are acting. I think the magic of Derren Brown is that he creates a suggestibility in his audience by using a scheme that appears to have some basis (NLP), camera shots/settings that borrow from the "reality TV" genre, and creating a credible illusion that he is altering people's minds. The audience, confronted with these things, buys into what he's doing is real, as opposed to elaborate set-ups. Having some one who pretends they're a regular guy is one of the oldest cons in the book.

spyrelx, Did you check out Sifu Wong? After reading your post, I mean: How was Sifu Wong?

These white crane guys must have gotten to Darin's teacher, and his teacher's teacher too. Maybe Tai Chi and White Crane just have some things in common. BTW: of all the students I've seen at the Tai Chi Tao Center, none of them appear to be psychotic meglomaniacs. I do know that practicing anything for two hours a day would probably fall outside the realm of "not too much, not too little."

I don't know if it would give the ability to discharge an objective electric shock that anyone can feel. When I first started with my teacher, I didn't feel anything. He could still shove me around, but I didn't feel very much by way of chi sensations. Now I feel the sensations (and of course, he can still shove around). I think his output is the same, but it feels different. A few people have suggested that Robert Peng has the objective ability, but I don't know. Perhaps some one has dealt with him directly? Bodri writes that ejaculation diminishes your jing. He's very clear on that. Go to his website and go to the page where he's selling his biggest course. There's a link that lets you download (for free) a chapter from his course, "Gong-fu Transfomations" and he talks in depth about it there. For you slackers: Bodri's Link

I mean from Master Liao's side. Call the Tai Chi Tao center and ask.

Bone breathing... I've only just started with bone breathing, and I've only done my hands. There are a few caveats: 1. You shouldn't do it unless you're feeling really good. My teacher says that what we're doing here is packing down the chi, and if its colored with negative emotions, you don't want to pack it in. 2. You need to have produced a good flow. This was my major problem. For the first 18 months, I didn't get much of a flow when I was doing Tai Chi, so doing exercises like this wouldn't have meant much. 3. I was told to start small, like just the fingers. 4. I wouldn't recommend this for beginners (and this is aimed at the onlookers/casual readers rather than Thaddeus) because a) you probably won't get anything from it; b ) you should have a lot of knowledge/control to be patient; c) if you haven't learned how to relax on a deep level, you'll probably just tense your muscles and that's no good. My results: the electrical shock feeling in my hands, increased sensitivity in my hands generally. The further I get away from my hands, the harder it is, but I think this is a matter of practice. I think this sort of breathing is fundamental in this system for building the power for external applications, like tossing people around. I have a ways to go for this, especially due to the fact that when I contact some one else, I lose my focus. It's funny because I've also been practicing Bodri's skeleton meditation after my usual sitting so I can get more in touch with my bones. Bodri states that focusing on the skeleton is a way to build up your jing; Master Liao writes that this technique converts chi into jing.

Just re: the CMC--- he never said the CMC form was from the temples. He openly admits that he adopted the CMC form to teach tai chi because it is simple. We can talk all day about the various alleged origins, histories, etc. but this isn't my concern. My main concern with these things is whether they work. I don't care if its a Taoist technique, a Buddhist technique, or a Christian technique; whether it was made up today or 1000's of years ago; whether there is a pedigree or not. My question is: does it work? I believe we live in an amazing age where this knowledge is ripe for the taking. Personally, I would like to find the most effective techniques to free myself and others from suffering, delusion, etc. To paraphrase the Buddha, when you have an arrow in your chest, it doesn't matter what kind of wood it is, or the sort of arrowhead, or who shot it. What matters is getting it out.

First, I personally use the term "Master" as a respectful honorific. Having studied Master Liao's system, he does seem in my opinion to have mastered some level of Tai Chi and I think the title is appropriate. I don't think such things necessarily confer a "guru" status, i.e. imply that the person is master of me. Second, I don't think ad hominem attacks, insults, etc. are approriate, no matter who we're talking about. I don't think Thaddeus should be banned, tortured, beaten, drawn, or quartered due to his remarks, he certainly has his right to post them. I reserve my right to call the remarks childish. Turning to Thaddeus' remarks: Third, one should not mix Gary Clyman in with Waysun Liao. There is no record of him having ever attended or studied at Master Liao's school. Fourth, I study Master Liao's system, but my personal contact with him has been very limited. Most of my contact is with my teacher. Regarding Master Liao learning CMC form in a park: this is quite ridiculous. Master Liao's system of Tai Chi is deep and comprehensive. His system is based on single form practice, in which each individual move (ward off, single whip, etc.) are units in themselves. Thus, one can practice ward off over and over again, then roll back over and over again, etc. One can string them together in the long form, or one can string them together in any way one pleases. I have not found any CMC based Tai Chi people who have even heard of single form practice. There are many details to the forms, and the teaching is layered. At first, you learn the physical basics (i.e. the bare bones of how to do a ward off). As you progress, you learn the finer details, and on different levels (physical, mental, or chi levels). The teaching changes as you adapt, so that in the beinning, you are only learning the physical aspects. Over time as you develop mental and chi awareness, you learn more about these aspects. Eventually, there are chi applications as to martial arts, healing, and spiritual aspects. I am not very advanced, and my knowledge is quite limited. Another thing I find striking about this system is the emphasis on a meditative mindset and open discussion of chi. Many schools/teachers/students will only discuss the physical aspects of these practices. Not only are these things openly talked about, but they are openly demonstrated. Regarding Master Liao's connections to the community: he has some connections in China/Taiwan (where he lived until coming here in the 1970's), and has been known to host people visiting from there. As to his accomplishments: he has approved very few people as instructors in his system. My own teacher has studied under him for twenty years. My own teacher is quite humble and doesn't care about fame/fortune/making his accomplishments known. Much of Master Liao's own energy has been funneled into his books, DVDs and teaching his instructors, i.e. preserving the system. I'm not saying that this system is the end-all-be-all of tai chi, or the only authentic form of tai chi, or anything like that. In my experience, it gives you what it promises, according to the effort you put in. I think that's enough for now.

This thread is shameful rumor mongering. Unless anyone here has had direct experience with Master Liao (and it sounds like the answer is "no"), then I this all amounts to gossipy backstabbing and is both childish and contemptible.

Skeleton Sale Link fixed!

I agree. Personally, one of the most helpful things I learned about letting go is physical relaxation. I find that letting go of muscular tension is a pre-requisite and useful forerunner for inner letting go. It's just easier if your body is relaxed, and the mechanisms are the same. It's also a lot easier for me to see physical tension in my body than the tight mental attitudes in my mind.

My thought is: would I even want to be immortal? Immortality would imply locking in one's physical form (and possibly all the impulses, personality, etc. that goes along with it). Yet Taoist and Buddhist teachings point out that our true inner nature is formless, empty. This would be in my mind like trying to maintain a block of ice in warm river. If the true nature of that block of ice is to become free flowing water, then maintaining that block would be counterproductive. However, I don't think it is possible. The one truth that I've found over and over again is the truth of impermanence. I'm not the same person I was five years ago, a week ago, moments ago when I was in my car drinking coffee. Putting an individual against impermanence, I'd put my money on impermanence. And I wouldn't want it any other way: I wouldn't want this same body, these thoughts, my current state forever. I want it to change, to grow, to evolve. Another thing to consider is attachment. Pursuing physical immortality would create a long-standing attachment to one's body (i.e. form in the 5 skandhas). Assuming arguendo that the "moment of death" theory is valid, imagine some one who's life, however long, has been dedicated to avoiding death. Not only would that individual suffer upon facing death, put they would have a "karmic" attachment that could set them back eons. Besides, whether one lives ten years or a thousand years, when it is over it is all no more than a blink.

I would say you need both. You need to make constant effort. I think if some one just sits around and does nothing, then nothing happens. However, making an effort doesn't mean seeking a result. I think this is where letting go comes in. You make the efforts without expectations, and let come what comes. "You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty." Bhagavad Gita, 2.47

I wrote about my experience under the topic "Actual Manifestation of Chi."