forestofsouls

Granted. All the writing, and the whole of your life are behind you. You are 99 years old now. Good run, if only you'd been there to see it! I wish everyone ran blissful energy all the time.

For me, it definitely started selfish. Dukkha, dukkha, dukkha everywhere I looked. The journey produces compassion, though. As you understand youself, you begin to understand others, and that allows for deeper sympathy and compassion. So it tends to change between more selfish and more altruistic motives. Underneath it all, however, there is a definite pull in a certain direction whether I want to go at this point or not. Once they've seen the bright lights of Paris... Buddhist terms seem very simple, and in fact limited, but their meaning grows with practice and experience. In once sense, I am simply learning the same things over and over: anicca, anatta, dukkha, advaita. On another, it is not the same at all. The fact you don't resonate with this would probably explain why you're drawn to the path of the magician. I see the magician as more of a positive approach-- drawn by wonder, curiousity, etc. Dion Fortune wrote something along the lines that the path of the magician covers all the sefira on the tree of life, where the path of the mystic goes straight up the central channel. The magician is more interested in the flora and fauna, developing each stage, etc. whereas the mystic has their eyes on God. The mystic tends to get there quicker, but has not yet developed all the latent abilities the magician has. There might be something to this.

Zen Flesh, Zen Bones

Granted. You're turned into a plant. I wish I could go back when I was 16, and do it all over again with all my knowledge and mental abilities I have now.

Yes, it is equanimity. Common spiritual side effect.

Granted. Resources used for same cause unprecedented destruction of earthly resources and pollution. Earth becomes uninhabitable. Humanity temporarily takes shelter at the moon base, until some idiot is talking on his video phone and drives into the protective glass dome, shattering it. Everyone asphyxiates. I wish for a thousand wishes that have to be granted.

gold, I've had similar dream experiences. When I was more into LD, I would look at my hands. For a while, my dream hands would melt. Then, eventually, after studying my hands all that time, my dream world would create it. No melting hands. When I meditate and am sleepy, I often "fall" into dreams for a few seconds. Over time, I've come to see that the dream image and the "real world image" are in essence the same. Stephen LaBerge has said that being awake is dreaming with conditions, i.e. the world. Dreaming at night is dreaming without conditions. Still dreaming, either way. With one exception that I've seen: dreams lack continued sensory clarity. When awake, there is a continued, moment-to-moment level of sensory clarity that is different from dreams. I don't think you can watch the seconds tick, one at a time, for a several minutes in a dream. Either the sensory clarity will fade or the dream image will shift. This is of course my experience, and yours might vary.

I think quantum physics is poorly understood which makes it easy to use it as a dumping ground for mystical justifications. From my understanding, the observer principle is not that consciousness creates things, but that by observing something, you will to use an instrument, and the use of that instrument disturbs the measurement. But "what the bleep" picks up on that and says it means our thoughts create reality. Not really the same thing.

Mak, Thanks for warning us about this obscure Taiwanese group that no one has probably heard of until now. Also, beware the Raelians!

I have seen some ridiculous conversations on the Taobums. But this is probably the most ridiculous conversation I have ever heard. Not too far from people get hot and bothered over Harry Potter or Dungeons and Dragons leading people to the devil. Mak Tin Si: Seriously, lighten up. Take a break from trying to save the world according to your paradigm and take a walk outside. Breath air. Laugh. Live a little. To get this baby back on track: You fly. Your flight confounds scientists and undermines the basics of physics. Science and technology grind to a halt. Thanks to you, we all end up living in caves. I wish I could have lucid dreams whenever I wanted.

You become a mindless automaton able to do everything, but unable to feel, think, or reason for yourself. You pass your life in a gray, disciplined malaise. I wish for a better future for our children.

Your wish is granted. The deserted beach becomes a breeding ground for rats and disease because no one knows they are there. London re-experiences the Black Plague. I wish all beings were free from suffering and distress.

goldisheavy, your posts sound bitter. I hope this is just the nature of the posts, and not evidence of deeper rooted negative emotions. Santiago charges very little for what he offers. Very little. In ancient, agrarian societies, there may have been a place for wandering spiritual gurus, but the West is a bit different. Master Sheng Yen said that when Buddhism came to China, it had to change because there was no support system in place at the time for forest monks. So there was Zen, using daily life as its practice. In the modern West, things that are given freely are often undervalued. Gurdjieff wrote a story about a man who bought hot peppers by mistake, thinking it a cooler fruit. But because he paid for it, he ate every one with sweat streaming down his face. Maybe this is food for contemplation.

Based on your prior posts, I would wager that it means you're chasing after an altered state of consciousness. A lot of people might finger wag at this, but I wonder how many of us got into meditation under similar circumstances. If you really want to "trip" out with meditation, then almost all the sources I've come across agree on the requirement: You have to build up a high level of concentration. In order to do that, you should take up a moral training code--- i.e. the yoga yamas and niyamas, the five precepts, ten commandments, whatever. These help calm the mind in order to establish a strong foundation for concentration.

Skype is a free computer program that lets you call other computers. You can do audio or audio/video. Essentially, we can a free conference call. What we could do, essentially, is send some one like Michael our Skype IDs and he could call all of us at an appointed time. It would be nice to hear the voices behind the Bums.

I can vouch for that. I'm taking his course right now. I am actually in shock and awe about what I'm learning from him.

It's funny, but I'd never really considered myself a Taoist in the past... as of late, I have been seeing a lot of what Taoism has to say about the nature of change, effortless effort, yin and yang, etc. My favorite summary has been Master Waysun Liao's interpretation of the title of the Tao Te Ching. To paraphrase: Tao stands for the greater universe, the whole. Te is the microcosm, the individual universe contained within a single person. Ching is the opening and flow of energy in between them. Taoism teaches how to open the individual to the cosmos, to allow the flow of energies between the large and small universes.

Here's what Daniel has to say... About fingers: Noticing the three characteristics is the heart and soul of practice. Now this can only be done once you have developed a certain degree of concentration. When you have enough concentration, you can look closely at anything that arises, whether a thought, feeling, or sensation, and ask three questions: 1. Does it change? 2. Does it satisfy? 3. Is it me? Over time, this has a long term impact on how one sees the world...

It would be cool, but look at the book club or the chat room and how little the Taobums can get something up and running. It would take a core of dedicated followers to meet each week no matter what to get in going. Worth a try.

I would say it depends on where you are. Sometimes you need refinement, sometimes not. I was discussing in another thread talking from an absolute perspective and from a relative perspective. I picked this up from Advaita and consider it valuable. For instance, a wise master may say "There is nothing that can be done." When you look at the arising of the subjective phenomenon we call "I", this is true: thoughts, feelings, and sensations appear and disappear according to there own rhythm, a part of an infinite chain of causes that span the entire universe. On the relative side, there is much we can by way of cultivation. Usually, I cannot be in a naturally attentive, flowing state, so I apply effort. Once the momentum gets going, I can let go and coast for short periods of time. Then I start over again. This makes sense in the yin-yang perspective: there is a time for effort and action, but after a certain point this should wane and the yin cycle begins, etc. I wonder if the whole path isn't like this: refine to a certain point where you can let it all go. I can't help but think, from the relative side, that the quickest way to go nowhere is to do... nothing.

All three of Bardon's Step One mental exercises are shamatha (concentration) type disciplines. The first teaches the art of letting to, the second focus, and the third mental void. I don't practice mental void, at least not since my Bardon days. In my practice, meditation has two main lines: shamatha and vipassana. Shamatha is developing concentration by limiting the mind (to varying degrees) on an object. The range and focus of the object may change. It can be a mantra, a colored disk, the breath, a bodily sensation, etc. Shamatha practices may lead to ecstatic states, but according to reports they usually end with the meditation. Vipassana is penetrating the "objects". This is where one carefully attends to objects to see it clearly and precisely. An apparant object, on close examination may break down into constituent parts. Long term practice actually rewires the mind and how it processes information. There are, of course, many other forms of meditation: self-enquiry, choiceless awareness, awareness watching awareness, letting go, dynamic meditation, etc. I think all of these require some degree of foundational concentration, to varying degrees. The whole point of these practices is to change habitual mental patterns (along with practicing sila). It does so in a subtle way. As you learn more about the ultimate nature of things, you simply change with it. It's like Santa Claus--- once you realize he doesn't exist, you simply let go of the belief. It's gone. As you learn about you own mind, you begin to understand the universal nature of what others experience. This can breed compassion. As you learn that content/conditions DO NOT satisfy, your desire for things diminishes, and this leads to a whole host of changes. It's a magical process.

gold, What do you mean by contemplation? In some Chan circles, it means bare attention on objects of perception. Or are you referring to discursive thinking? Mindfulness based meditation leads to direct perception of impermanance, non-self, non-duality, etc. These are not ideas, concepts, or mental formulations but actual experiences. You can literally see the solid world break down into fluidity. You thoughts will melt like snowflakes in summer. These experiences lead to insights which subtly change the very nature of your mind. Over time, you can build sensory clarity, equanimity, concentration power, and many other things. I don't know what your Zen master practiced, but I would wager his technique was flawed. I know plenty of people who have meditated for years, but are really watching home movies on their inner mental projector. This isn't really meditating, this is day dreaming. The same goes for those that sink into dullness. When I read stories like the one you put below, I am thinking of the confusion between abosulte and relative truth. Absolute truth is that we do nothing. There are multiple causes and conditions that lead to a flurry of thoughts, feelings, and bodily sensations that propel us along. But if you were to tell some one, "Do nothing," then you would be giving bad advice. Relatively speaking, you can investigate your situation, develop some concentration skills, and become aware of your situation. So realtively, one may say "Go meditate." Most of these stories reflect the aboslute view. The trouble is, we start off in the relative view. Once you start mixing paradigms, you get into confusion. I don't know if you're a fool or not. You might be completely enlightened and I'd be none the wiser. But google in advaita and you'll find legions who agree with you. Neo-advaitists will tell you, do nothing, you're enlightened. But go back to the great avaidist Ramana Maharshi of "Who am I?" fame and you'll find he prescribed specific concentration/meditation techniques before one could legitimately handle self-enquiry. But people say "The great sage says asking Who am I? is the highest teaching, this is what I'll do" and then they may engage in endless mental chatter. Sadly, the mental chatter leads to... more mental chatter. In order to view the world, you have to step back from it. The endless thinking is part of the problem. Bringing full attention to the thinking leads to solutions. Feel free to talk--- I'm not really directing this at you anyway--- I doubt either of us will change our minds because of this talk. This last part I quoted. This is based on a faulty premise. Meditation can take three basic forms: formal meditation, moving meditation, and meditation in life. This would be comparable to learning to pilot a boat in a pool, then in a stream, and then taking to the ocean. But it takes work, and dedication. The ego doesn't like you to develop concentration and mindfulness skills. The ego wants people to keep doing what they always do: bop along being pushed by arising thoughts, feelings, and sensations. When you get into it, you might find the body actually tenses to prevent you from going into high levels of concentration. Why is this? Because these practices undermine the ego's power. People groan, they resist, they reinterpret what they hear. But if it were easy, we'd all be enlightened.

gold, I tend to detect an anti-meditation bias in your posts. I wonder where this stems from--- perhaps a bad experience with a poor teacher. I, and many others, have experienced tremendous benefits from meditation. I've also encountered many anti-technique, "just be here now" folks that cannot demonstrate the least bit of concrete knowledge about themselves. I think selling this attitude to people with poor concentration and low equanimity skills can lead people down a dead end. Meditation is a skill, like driving a car or learning a martial art. At first, there is a lot of clumsiness and effort, do this then do this. Over time, the forms can fade and one can do it spontaneously. But I would not advice simply jumping into a car or a sparring ring and being spontaenous. A lot of problems can arise when meditation/spirituality is cloaked in mystical ideas. I also think people fail at meditation because they either 1) do not follow the instructions, or 2) do not simply put in the effort. In the West, many people have a "get it now attitude". How many people decide to learn a new skill or musical instrument and don't follow through?

Joshu, The symptoms you have reported are very common. I myself have experienced them many times at varying intensities. This is a classic stage of meditation. I've practiced many forms of tai chi and qi gong--- having learned from Waysun Liao's school, taken classes from Master Chen and Sifu Wong Kiew Kit in person--- but the only thing that has really helped me build equanimity is penetrating the difficult emotions with attention, i.e. vipassana, specifically as taught by Shinzen Young. If the emotion comes up in a huge block, it can be overwhelming. If you can break it down to just image, just feeling, and just (inner) talk, it is easier to digest--- like taking a 1 ton rock and splitting it in thirds. I'm not saying you shouldn't take qi gong, in fact it can be helpful, but it may not provide the silver bullet you may be looking for. In fact, it may make the emotions more powerful. My old tai chi teacher says that it accelerates your illness/problems, so that they often get very bad before they get better. I find this is how I get sick: I usually get very sick for a very short period of time. I practice qi gong myself, but for energy and power to propel my meditation. Anyway, I'm sure you're work through it, one way or another. More than likely, your head is in the tiger's mouth.