Cueball

I don't think any of this is unnatural or uncommon, it does seem to be part and parcel of a process. I have even heard that — paradoxically — as the separation becomes weaker; the fear intensifies. Bruce Frantzis' account is a very good one. When you say to experience or unify with the Dao "is supposed to be the highest good, true bliss, power, peace, etc.", this is interpreted by the mind and the personality as wonderful and inspiring, but the subtle bodies contain aeons of trauma and forgetfulness (made up of samskaras/thoughtforms/volitions). In fact they are built from them. The dissolution of these is the dissolution of everything that is familiar and known. Without these bodies there is no existence. (At least not in any recognisable way.) So it is not surprising to experience fear of that disappearing. You could say that the highest good and power is rather uncompromising, and that it allows no possibility of negotiating yourself out of a tight spot. This is perhaps an under-reported aspect in the glossy brochures. So when you stray into territory where the mind becomes eclipsed by greater powers, the awareness starts to dawn that there's no longer any real chance of escape. None of the known tricks and scheming work whatsoever. All of which can be threatening. Spiritual goodies sound good... but even peace and beauty may be too much to handle for a sentient being e.g. the Seraphic angels are so divine in light, it has been said even the other choirs of angels cannot bear to gaze directly upon them.

Interestingly the story of Prahlad Jani in the original vid sounds similar to that of Therese Neumann's — especially in how it originated. Therese Neumann is also mentioned in Yogananda's book as they met in the 1930s. I feel these things do happen and have happened, but have so little to do with the mechanics of food and drink that anyone attempting it for the sake of fasting/purity/spiritual cleansing etc is missing the mark. -------------------------------- On the anniversary of her death, September 30, 1927, St Therese of Lisieux appeared to Therese in a vision and told her that henceforth she would live entirely off the Eucharist, and would have not need for earthly food. This total abstinence from food and drink continued until her death in 1962. The fast actually began in 1922, but was not a total and complete fast from food or drink until September of 1926. This led to a request by the Bishop of Regensburg that Therese submit herself to a period of medical observation. The request was for a fifteen-day observation, for specialists in these matters considered such a period sufficient. They asserted that hunger might pos­sibly be borne longer than that, but a complete fast of two weeks without taking any liquid nourishment was not possible. Resl's father agreed to comply with the episcopal request, and so from July 14 to 28 inclusive, in the year 1927, Therese was under the observation of four Mollersdorfer Sisters, members of a nursing order, who came to her home. They were placed under oath by the Regensburg ordinariate before and after the observation. All were well qualified for the task, and carried out with the most scrupulous care the directions of Dr. Seidl, the medical supervisor. The directions were very strict and carefully calculated to meet every possible contingency. Therese was not to be left alone for a single moment, day or night, whether at home, in church, or out of doors. For this reason, even her customary confession was foregone. The Sisters were to bathe Therese, but with a damp cloth instead of a sponge. The water for mouth washes was to be measured and remeasured before to Resl so she could swallow the Host was to be measured by the Sisters before it was given to her. Periodic weigh­ing of the body, taking of the pulse and temperature were prescribed. Blood smears were to be made during the Friday ecstasies and compared with a blood smear from the ear lobe taken on another day, after which the hemo­globin content was to be determined. According to the Miinchner medizinische Wochenschriit supplement, No. 46, 1927, the directions went so far as to demand that "All excretions - urine, vomit, and stools - must be gathered, measured, and weighed, and immediately sent to the physician for analysis." Professor Ewald of Erlangen, an opponent of any super­natural explanation of this phenomenon, admitted in a brochure on Konnersreuth that the keenest and most relentless attention was given to the matter of food throughout the period of observation. Despite the constant alertness, it could never be ascertained that Therese Neumann took nourishment or attempted to take it. The professor claimed that the stigmatist ought to have lost weight heavily, but such was not the case. She did lose considerably (3 to 8 pounds in a few days is no slight loss) following the days of ecstasy, but regained this in the course of the same brief period. Without taking food or drink she gained 5 to 6 pounds, so that at the conclusion of the observation her weight was the same as before. Dr. Ewald also draws attention to the fact that about 400 grams of water are taken from the body daily through exhalations. It is to be especially noted that to meet the demands of exhalation is a purely phys­ical process and almost totally independent of the consti­tution of the individual. To the loss in this manner must be added that which accompanies the bleeding, perspira­tion, etc. "Therese ought long since to have been dried up like a mummy. But she is fresh-looking and lively, has saliva, and moist mucous membrane. One may indulge in the most fantastic imaginings, a prolongation of metabolism as in hibernation, or Iakirism - though The­rese does not hibernate, but moves, speaks, reads, writes letters, goes about - this increase in weight simply cannot be explained; for something cannot come from nothing.” Dr. Seidl, who had been Therese Neumann's attending physician since at least 1918, testified under oath in a Munich court case on April 15, 1929, that there could be no question of Therese having taken any nourishment during the period of observation. He maintained flatly that the abstention of all nourishment by Therese Neumann was a fact, which he had not the least reason to doubt. He added that since September, 1926, the stigmatist took no nourishment at all, not even a bit of water, as she had at the time of the fifteen days' observation. She was once asked how it was possible that she lived on the Eucharist alone, and she responded “The Saviour can do all things. Did He not say that “my Flesh is real food, and my blood is real drink?” http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2009/12/therese-neumann-mystic-victim-soul.html

Hi Apech, good points... especially that gnostic lineages go back further than the figure of Christ. (Using 'gnostic' and 'lineage' in a loose sense here, as the Thomas text and others are likely from multiple sources). So it's more than about accepting Christ as your master and Lord - rather recognising him as a tremendously helpful (and potentially salvific) emanation of light. But there are other emanations… so Christ wasn't the be all and end all of the gnostic practice. A view of Christ as your Lord or loving King is still more representative of the exoteric path of Christianity, rather than the meat and potatoes, the gnocchi in the gnosticism, if you get me. But there are many shades of grey and I get your point. Being immersed in bhakti (even with such a 'pure' source of light that is outside of the master/slave dynamic) can lead to some of the issues in that Osho excerpt, which I think was the point 9th was making, and one that I find interesting. Sorry if this is veering off-topic ;-)

The body and material existence in general get quite a bashing elsewhere too: "This world is a corpse-eater. All the things eaten in it themselves die also. Truth is a life-eater. Therefore no one nourished by truth will die." (Gospel of Philip) 'Stranded' in the world is a good way of putting it: "Wise men of old gave the soul a feminine name. Indeed she is female in her nature as well. She even has her womb. As long as she was alone with the father, she was virgin and in form androgynous. But when she fell down into a body and came to this life, then she fell into the hands of many robbers. And the wanton creatures passed her from one to another and [...] her. Some made use of her by force, while others did so by seducing her with a gift. In short, they defiled her, and she [...] her virginity." (The Exegesis on the Soul)

The question for me is… even without a guru, devotional figure/ishta/yidam, can one have a relationship with the light that doesn't sometimes call into question the same kinds of stuff that crops up in those situations? My feeling is it's quite hard to avoid certain issues in practice - even where they're not characterised as master/slave, there's still rather a lot at stake to dismiss such possibilities. I don't know much about Osho but I thought his point was good.

Yes it seems to be another case of two different meanings... where 'intoxication' refers to a sobering force of awakening, and in other places to a state of drunkeness and darkness. That Barbara Brennan description seems not quite on the mark to me, and the GThomas passage no.13 also seems to be pointing to something other than shaktipat, or at least as shaktipat is described there. Then there's the question of whether or not transmissions or their equivalents always involve the mechanics of kundalini. But these things are never that clear cut and there are definitely 'shades' of it as you say. The Osho bit I found really interesting, thanks for posting!

I thought you might like that one Jeff! (No need to thank me, thank John and his Apocryphon....)

... and the Gnostic remedy for getting blind drunk: "And in that moment the luminous Epinoia appeared, and she lifted the veil which lay over his mind. And he became sober from the drunkenness of darkness." (Apocryphon of John)

I agree that the state of drunkenness in this section refers to being intoxicated with the lower realms and with darkness. Something similar appears in The Book of Thomas the Contender: "Woe to you, captives, for you are bound in caverns! You laugh! In mad laughter you rejoice! You neither realize your perdition, nor do you reflect on your circumstances, nor have you understood that you dwell in darkness and death! On the contrary, you are drunk with the fire and full of bitterness. Your mind is deranged on account of the burning that is in you, and sweet to you are the poison and the blows of your enemies! And the darkness rose for you like the light, for you surrendered your freedom for servitude!"

To me this is along the same lines as what's said in the new testament about 'going into your closet' and shutting the door and praying i.e. withdrawal of the senses… pratyahara in yoga terms or hesychasm in the Christian tradition. But then there's the earlier saying "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits" So, two interpretations, depending on your outlook...

Sorry… bit late. Thanks for sharing Jeff, I read it with interest especially your experience with a light transmission. It does seem like quite a bit of preliminary work has to take place before the bridal chamber.

Hi Apech, this thread is very interesting so thanks to you and Jeff for continuing. I love this bit of the text. This is only one interpretation, so it may or may not add anything to the mix. In the gnostic texts the subtle bodies are often referred to as 'garments'. The male/female emanations in some gnostic texts were termed syzygy. The garment -- or body -- that goes beyond all opposites (upper/lower; inside/outside) is recognized as that which contains even male and female in a single one. Jesus speaks of this body of union several times as the 'solitary' one in GThomas. (Also in the Dialogue of the Savior.) The solitary one is not one who stands alone or elect, but one who has unified syzygy in a body. Next bit I'm not sure... but a 'likeness in place of a likeness' to me reads as being able to manifest in the world of form at will. Fabricating from the higher realms into the physical. Maybe? Beyond unification... the sacrament awaiting the outcome of unifying syzygy in the body is the bridal chamber. ("Many are standing at the door, but it is the solitary who will enter the bridal chamber.") But maybe Jeff can say more about this aspect or if it comes up later. Just my 2c. It's a great section for sure.

Hi Spotless, On the bliss/vibration thing, can you say more? This is really interesting to me because I recognise what you're talking about but I've not come across it expressed this particular way before. I'm finding - as you said - that this is far from the 'actual texture and tone' of bliss as I might have thought, might have believed, once upon a time. I could describe the texture and tone as I experience it, but to be honest it's mostly a really annoying thing to have to work with. Or to work around. I haven't figured out which yet. Thanks

That's an interesting site. There's a lot of variation within the different systems from what I have come across - some seem to collapse all of the ones beyond into sahasrara; others have different 'placements'. Not that it matters a whole lot I guess. I've not come across the golden body before. Thanks for the info tibetan ice.

I'd definitely like to hear more about it - either from personal experience or from other sources. I've also been working along similarish lines, and, anamatva - what you said definitely makes sense according to what I understand. But I've never got much in the way of ancillary information, so would love to hear more, specific or non-specific, it's all good. Thanks!

Thanks - I gladly accept both the cake and the funky tune. Full of potential, yes. I like the 'full'. Only fairly recently have I felt that void is not about death and loss, but about life and gain. Which can be scary too, because it is more than normal life and gain. I do wonder if, in many circumstances, it's harder to face the gain that comes when you are invested in loss. I don't know, I think there are always voids to cross. Interesting topic though!

Just wanted to say I think this is really good (it's my experience too). It's funny to think heroics and self chastisement are what you need, for this kind of thing. Is the void different from the fullness? It can be just as scary to come into fullness, or more so, depending on individual circumstances. Just an idea. P.S. Mmmm.... piece of cake........

I'd also be very interested to hear anything more about this from the personal point of view. It's something that's been burrowing away at me too for a good while. Thanks for posting!

I tend to agree with that. It reminds me of something Trungpa Rinpoche says - along the lines of the path being so difficult that really it's better not to start in the first place. Classic Trungpa!

That's how I tend to see it too. Thanks for the post.

Jungian analyst Connie Zweig has done a lot of work in the area of guru/teacher as mana personality (in Jung-speak). In The Holy Longing she goes into various representations of the guru from a point of view of the archetypes, and especially those aspects that a student becomes attracted to. I thought it might be of some interest to this thread. They're not meant to be hard and fast categories but I think it's a very useful insight. I highly recommend the book for anyone interested, or wrestling with these sorts of issues in a real way. Longing for certainty - Drawn to the teacher as wise old man/woman. Offers the certainty of knowledge and wisdom of authority. Student/disciple desires to end anxiety of living with the unknown. Longing for salvation - Drawn to the teacher as savior, prophet or messiah. Offers exclusive message to believers, focussed on worlds beyond. Student/disciple has a desire for purifying sins, cleansing karma. Longing for unconditional love - Drawn to the teacher as divine mother; offers embrace of spiritual children in silent acceptance and healing the heart. Longing for faith - Drawn to the teacher as shaman or magician. Offers demonstrable siddhis. Student/disciple hopes to escape human limitations. Long to break free of rationality/conventionality - Drawn to the teacher as trickster; shows limits of rational mind and points to non-dual awareness; reconciliation of opposites

Thanks

I have to say IME the 'tearing down' is really only one part of a very large story that plays out in all sorts of ways. I think it becomes easily misunderstood. There may be times and places where you find yourself in uncompromising situations, but your list reads like a compendium of horror stories! No unconditional love on your list??

Me too. In the western tradition you have an anagogical understanding of texts in addition to the other literal or allegorical interpretations. I'm not sure what the Buddhist term for this would be? But to see thought and its expression as liberating as well as limiting is important. In Vajrayana, in Tantra - do you have a continual process of refining and expansion of tulpas/thoughtforms? Is that about right?

Ha! He did like a drink, for sure.