Aaron

Hello TheJourney, Very nice. I think you did a fine job. Aaron

Lately, as I try to explain things, I can't find the words for them anymore. I think it's needless to talk about something that can't be described adequately and Te is one of those things. Achieving a state where Te becomes a natural way of living, isn't something you can be told to do, rather it is something you need to learn to do. Even after you begin to practice Te, it doesn't mean you'll be perfect, or that you'll not make any mistakes. You wont become a savior or messiah, because the world doesn't need saving, rather you'll intuitively know how to manage things that used to baffle you. That's the key, when you are doing things you'll see a difference. Others will see a difference. The world will seem to make sense in ways that it used to confuse you. The things that you thought were important wont be important. I think then you must come to a decision, whether you wish to continue to live the way you did or whether you wish to live without concern for yourself. That's what it's about, giving up the self for the many. At least that's what I believe. In that regard it's not about doing whatever you want to do, rather it's about doing what needs to be done. Someone once asked the question, "if a Sage saw a baby floating down the river in a basket, would he jump in the water to save him?" The debate seemed to waver between those who felt the Sage shouldn't be attached to others, so he would most likely not do it, and those that felt the Sage was upright and good, so he would do it, but what I understand now is that the Sage jumps in the water, not to save the baby, but to save himself. He sees that baby and he sees himself. He understands on an intuitive level that doing good for someone else is doing good for himself, not because of Karma or Dharma, or any specific reason that might exist, other than the reason that he can see himself in that baby and there is no place in his heart for suffering that he might prevent. The Sage doesn't know the future, only that there is Te, and in practicing Tao Te arises naturally, spontaneously. He does not do things because he wants to feel good, but rather because they need to be done. Being a Sage is not glamorous or without pain and sorrow, rather it is the unrequited bliss of understanding that one is quite ordinary and that living an ordinary life is all one needs to do. Even after saying all this, I know I haven't said it well enough, but I also know that the brief glimpse that I've had of Te and Tao has changed the way I see the world and the way I behave within the world. I know that on a deeper level that those moments where everything seems to vanish, is when everything seems to be there. We are nothing and everything, yet we don't even know it. Anyways, I was confused about this for years and it wasn't until recently that it started to make sense to me on a level that it never has before. Once I stopped seeking the truth, I understood the truth. I know that if I continue to practice Tao that Te will arise and that it does arise now and then, of it's own accord, more and more each day. That's the beautiful thing about it, it happens on it's own, without my need to push it or force it, it just is when I let it be. Aaron

Hello Otis, I'm not sure if you are. For instance, if you felt like it, would you steal from someone? If you felt like it would you rape or harm someone? The people I'm talking about say any action that's innate, regardless of the consequences, is natural. Most people that follow this view seem to be bitter ex-Christians that view their form of Taoism as a means to escape the chains of guilt from their youth, but a few have a much darker reason for it. Aaron

I've met some. They seem to believe the Tao advocates natural action and that any action they take, so long as it's "innate" is natural. Hence, they can do whatever "feels right". Aaron

Sadly, I think most people aren't really interested in the Tao so much, as finding a philosophy that helps them to justify their behavior. They see Taoism on the surface and say, "this is for me. I never have to be moral again! Yay!" Not realizing that Taoism isn't about acting the way you want or being upright, but rather understanding the way the universe works. Aaron

Hello folks, I've been gone all day, so I'm jumping in on the tail end of this conversation. First thing, in regards to peaceful disagreement I think Chapter 81 of the Tao Teh Ching talks about this directly when it says that, "Good men are not argumentative, The argumentative are not good." If one looks at the various translations they all follow the same idea, that one who should not argue. There's this general idea that circulates that Taoism is about integrity and honesty, that one should act according to their own nature, and if by doing so one offends another, than so be it, but in my opinion that's contrary to what the Tao Teh Ching teaches. No, the Tao Teh Ching is not a moral text, but it is a text that discusses the relative value of humanity, virtue, and ethics. Lao Tzu understood that human society was constructed of rules and that in order to work harmoniously with others, one needed to understand those rules. He also understood that society would always have an ethical value system, good vs. bad, wrong vs. right, etc. What is often inferred by those who have a distaste for morality, is that the Tao Teh Ching advocates a society without ethics and morality, but I have my doubts regarding this, rather I think it urges people to look past the duality that is present and instead see the truth that lays in the whole, it also reminds us that we should still recognize those ethical values and act in a way that is still harmonious with society. That's what people tend to forget, the Tao Teh Ching was written during a time of war, and what it was intended to do was set down a course of action (or non-action) that, if followed by the rulers, would foster peace and harmony in the lands. People tend to look at much of what the Tao Teh Ching says and infer that it is meant for the common man, but in reality, it isn't. When you look at the order of the original chapters in the Guodian texts, one can see a pattern that appears, where the chapters are directing rulers on how they should act, not the common man. It's explaining what the Sages (or Sage-Kings) did and encouraging the rulers to emulate those Sages. The beauty of the text is that these suggestions for rulers can also be applied to our own lives. I know that much of this was an aside from the main topic, but it is important to address if we're going to honestly approach the idea of "Peaceful Disagreement", because the main reason that many people tend to believe that there isn't a need for peaceful disagreement, stems from the idea that we are not required (or recommended) to behave in an ethical or moral fashion. The idea goes that Te is the highest form of action and manifests from Tao, so if one is practicing in accord with the Tao, then Te will manifest as a result. Te is not a process of morality, ethics, or virtue, but rather the innate action that is manifest from Tao, so if one is a "Taoist" and practicing "Tao" then obviously they needn't worry about such trivial things as common courtesy or civility, however the reality is that if one is practicing Te they are civil and courteous, because it is the natural response to discourse. Compassion, moderation, and humility are all products of Te. When one is honestly practicing (or cultivating) Tao, then they should be manifesting these particular aspects of Te in their lives. If they are manifesting these aspects of Te, then they will invariably tend to be "good" men, in the sense that they will not be doing anything that causes disharmony to those around them. With that said, very few people can or do act in accordance with Tao all the time, what happens instead is that people tend to hit sporadic moments when they are in harmony with Tao. In order to become fully aware and practice Tao in every aspect of ones life, then one needs to be able to understand the nature of duality (the paradox state of existence) and also how duality is merely the surface of a greater Way, the Tao. Beyond good and bad, there is just It. When I mentioned in another thread that compassion stems from an understanding of our connection with everything in existence, that we are not "I" but actually "It", I was also stating that at that moment of realization we also develop an innate empathy for all things, because we understand that an action we take towards someone else, is an action we take towards ourself. By putting someone else before me, I am putting myself first, because that person is me. If I am having a discussion with someone else and I am rude or impolite, then I am being rude and impolite to myself as well. On a more understandable and rational level, if I understand the true nature of my connection to the world, then I also have the empathy that's needed to view others suffering and the desire to diminish or extinguish that suffering, so I am less likely to argue with them. If I understand the true nature of this connection I have with everything in existence, then I also understand that I am no better than anyone else, nor any worse, so I should also behave with a degree of humility when I do interact with others. Now the other thing to remember is that this understanding isn't the entirety of everything one needs to be aware of to understand Tao, in fact merely by explaining this concept, tells you that this is not the unnameable Tao we're talking about, but something that comes from Tao. This is something that is developed on the way to understanding and becoming aware of the mystery of mysteries. Anyways, this is long, so rather than continue what would be a protracted essay, I will rather say that the Tao Teh Ching, in my opinion, advocates peaceful disagreement, and there is no valid reason, in my opinion, for one who is attempting to cultivate or practice in accord with Tao, to behave in any other way, if they truly wish to become aware of Tao. Aaron

Hello EastDream, I'm sorry to hear you're getting stressed out. One thing to keep in mind is that these are the same people that you've known your entire life, and what's really changed is you. If you're asking me what you should do, I really don't want to tell you that, because this is a decision you need to make for yourself. When I'm around my family and they're stressing me out, oftentimes I'll go for a walk or get away and find someplace to mellow out. I don't get involved in the drama. When they start talking about one another I stay out of it, I don't take sides. I tend to only get involved if I think it's very serious and someone needs my help. No one can make you feel anything you don't want to feel, remember that. Also I try to remember to look at it from my mother's perspective. She might be a pain in the ass, but I know what her parents were like and I know that she did a better job with me than her mother did with her. In the end, we all do the best we can. We can't do anything more than that. There's this meditation I recite when I start to worry, it goes, "In the Tao I can find peace, In peace I can accept the things I cannot change, have the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." (It's a modification of the serenity prayer, but it still works.) One other thing I try very hard to do is not to have anger or hatred for others. If I am feeling anger or hatred for someone I try to change that frame of mind. I hope for only good things for that person, that they receive everything they want in life. Sometimes I'll stop and think about this and visualize those people with the changes they want in their lives. If I do it long enough, the anger usually goes away. Other than that, I would suggest that you just do the best you can and accept your family for who they are. As I said they are the same people you've known all your life, you're just changing and perhaps they're not used to that yet, but give them time, and if they really do love you, then they'll accept the new you eventually. My thoughts are with you. Aaron

Hello Goldisheavy, Once you said that, alarm bells started ringing. Once you know the truth, then there is no reason to continue to learn, everything else, of course, is a lie. In regards to good and bad, there is no good or bad at the ultimate level, but rather only what exists. However we can't perceive good, if we do not perceive bad. In the same way I can't function in society without understanding the nature of society. Behaving in socially appropriate ways doesn't mean you're not a part of the Tao, but rather that you are trying to work in harmony with others. I try to be reasonable and follow those precepts that I think help me to work in harmony and discard those that don't. Also, repeating that I'm a hypocrite doesn't make it so. You take a snippet of what I discuss and take it out of context. I never said there wasn't a good or bad, or that it was an illusion, I said that there is the duality and then the whole of reality, that's different. If you want to continue this discussion, start a new thread or message me and I'd be happy to discuss it more, but it's rude to carry on in this thread and I should have messaged you to begin with. Aaron

Nicely said Adam. Aaron

Hello Goldisheavy, I just wanted to point out where you have called other people names or made derogatory comments towards others, so that you can see how often you actually do it... I think if you go back and look, about 25% if everything you say is derogatory in some way. It makes me wonder if you truly understand what you're quoting, because it seems to me that you're missing the simplest of points, you do not act in accord with others by causing strife or demeaning them. Chapter 67 of the Tao Teh Ching says, "I have Three Treasures, which I hold fast and watch over closely. The first is Mercy. The second is Frugality. The third is Not Daring to Be First in the World. Because I am merciful, therefore I can be brave. Because I am frugal, therefore I can be generous. Because I dare not be first, therefore I can be the chief of all vessels." Chapter 81 ends by saying, "The Way of Heaven is to benefit, not to harm. The Way of the Sage is to do his duty, not to strive with anyone." I could give you numerous other examples that directly advocate treating others with respect, not calling others names, and not competing with others. Lao Tzu understood this, which is one of the reasons you will never find anything derogatory about Confucius within the Tao Teh Ching. With that said, I'm not saying this to belittle you or humiliate you, but rather point out that your way of communicating, calling people names and belittling them, is something you have learned to do, and if you are going to truly understand what you are reading, something you need to unlearn. I wont say that I haven't resorted to name calling in my own life, but one thing I have learned is that it resolves nothing. Today I make a concerted effort to address the argument at hand and not address the people themselves. I will not call someone an "idiot", "hypocrite", or any other it, because when I do so, I have started to compete with them. The key for me is to express my point of view and move on, not prove that I am right. If someone doesn't seem to get my point, then the other thing I need to be aware of is when to stop. I think much of this has to do with the fact that you are young, so I think as time goes by you may understand this better than you do now. In the meantime, there's no reason why you can't begin to work on these issues. You have a lot of good stuff to say, but calling people names, speaking in a derogatory manner, and belittling others is going to cause a lot of people to read what you say and never take it seriously. Before you get upset about this understand that most people who have studied the Tao in depth understand the concept of compassion and respect, when someone comes along that doesn't reflect those attributes in their actions, they often times view them as an intellectual Taoist, rather than a practitioner of the Tao. Again, I am not telling you this to be mean, but rather to call attention to something that you might not be aware of. Aaron

Sloppy, I think the contradiction itself is enough to drive people nuts, the idea that from nothing comes something. That's the real answer to your question by the way, the purpose of emptying your mind is to allow Tao to manifest spontaneously. It allows you to learn to behave intuitively, rather than logically. Remember an empty vessel is useful. Empty mind meditation is not really (IMO) meant for lucid dreaming. I did lucid dreaming for awhile by the way, then stopped, because I felt it was much for fun letting it occur on its own. Aaron

Hello Stig, I'm not sure if I follow your premise either. I know what you're saying, but I think there might be a simpler way to present it. I also feel that manifestation isn't going to be forced, rather it comes when you allow it to, so perhaps the key there is to learn to adapt to what's going on around you and to work in harmony with others, rather than opposed to them. With that said, you're a great writer and speaker, so I'm sure you'll figure it out in the end. Aaron

The purpose of life is a tricky question, because when one asks it, you can assume that one of the answers may be that there is no purpose to life. I think if you examine the question on a basic level that we could answer the question by simply stating that we are here to live. On a grander scale we could also assume we are here to procreate and perpetuate the human race. The perpetuate is the sticky part, especially with the abundance of war and catastrophe that seems to pop up here and there. I think another way of answering this question is simply by recognizing that purpose is a construct of the mind. To ask, "what is the purpose of life?" Is to ask, "is there a purpose to life?" When one asks that question, it's usually because they feel that there life has no purpose or requires purpose. If you ask, "is the purpose of life to be happy?" I think it's wise to also ask, "am I happy?" As others have stated there's nothing wrong with pursuing happiness, but to some extent I believe it is unrealistic to focus on happiness as the sole purpose. I keep in mind the idea that there have to be opposites in life, without sadness, there can't be happiness, so if the purpose is solely to be happy, then if we achieve that purpose, will we still value it as much as we did before we pursued it? Perhaps the best course of action to take is to find a sense of balance in ones life? In my own life I don't strive for happiness, but rather I strive to do what I believe needs to be done. I look at the things happening around me and try to keep in mind what is really happening. I address those things I can do now and do them. Those things I can't do today, I don't worry about. My main concern is living in the hear and now. When I live in the hear and now, I find that a lot of the things that cause me to stress out evaporate and what I'm left with is the possibility of the moment. Anyways, I could go on, but what I'm saying is that the question, "what is the purpose of life?" Isn't as important as living life. So what I would suggest is not to worry about what you don't need to worry about. Not to worry about those things you can't change, and try to appreciate all those things in your life that allow you to enjoy the moment. Aaron

Hello Five, I hope you have a good holiday too. I also think that this thread touches on an important concept in Tao (and other spiritual schools) that of nothingness. I was also hoping to hear what others had to say about nothingness and how it relates in the grand scheme of things, especially in regards to other spiritual traditions outside of Taoism and Buddhism. Perhaps if we're lucky, someone might share with us their insight. Aaron

Hello people, What follows is my attempt to rephrase the twelve steps so that they can be better understood as they relate to other philosophies. My attempt was not to rephrase them so that they were exclusive to one philosophy or another, but rather to carry the general message that is expressed in the Twelve Steps in a way that is easier to understand and follow for someone who is not familiar or comfortable with the concept of God. I understand that this might be uncomfortable to some who believe that the twelve steps are perfect the way they are, but I would urge those who have worked these steps and found them to be beneficial to their recovery to take an earnest look at these rewritten steps and add your honest ideas in regards to how I rephrased them, keeping in mind that we should try to stick to what is genuine to their original purpose. Twelve Steps to Recovery 1) We came to understand that we had a problem that we could not control and that our lives were out of control. 2) We came to understand that there was a way that could return sanity to our lives. 3) We learned that there was another Way to live and decided to follow that Way. 4) We made an honest and complete investigation of ourselves. 5) We shared what we had discovered about ourselves with another. 6) We became willing to change the way we behaved. 7) We began to follow another Way. 8) We examined the effects our lives have had on others and were willing to make amends to those people we had harmed. 9) We made direct amends to people we had harmed, when we could, except when to do so would cause more harm to those people. 10) Having learned to examine our actions, we continued to do so, admitting when we were doing something that harmed ourselves or others and tried to stop those harmful actions. 11) Sought to deepen our understanding of ourselves through reflection and meditation, so that we could improve our connection with the world, seeking knowledge of what was beneficial for ourselves and others. 12) Having come to an awareness as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others who suffered, and practice these principle in every aspect of our lives. -------------- Again, I am not set in stone on what I've written. This is not an attempt to promote my own views, but rather to gather ideas from others regarding this rephrasing, in the hopes of making them easier to understand, so that they can help those who suffer from addiction. If you don't think that they need to be rewritten, then you don't need to state that, I already know there are people that don't believe that they need to be rewritten and stating that again isn't going to change my mind. What I am looking for is input from others who agree that there is a need to incorporate other views and make the steps more accessible to those other views. Thanks in advance for your help. Aaron Edited to add- If you would like to talk to me about this while remaining anonymous, please feel free to PM or PM me for my email and I will be happy to talk to you in private, your anonymity is safe with me.

I was thinking of starting a new thread about the first step as it's presented in this thread, in particular a discussion of the wording and how it should be presented. I had planned on writing a book (for no profit) regarding recovery, using these alternative steps, so any input would be greatly appreciated. Aaron

Hello folks, One thing that has provided me with a great deal of hope (whether that's good or bad is up to you) is the amount of people that have contributed to this debate and the relatively compassionate discourse. I think one thing this thread shows, is that when people become aware of compassion and discuss it, that it tends to present itself without much intent at all. Aaron

Hello 3bob, Some things just can't be explained (honestly they can't) you either understand them or you don't. I think this is one of those things. Aaron

Hello Fiveelementaltao, I'm sorry if I offended you. I've been practicing for many many years and I've had similar experiences, including studying Teutonic (Rosicrucian and Germanic) magic, Wicca, Qabbalism, the ancient book of the dead, etc. In fact in my youth I was very interested in those sorts of things. For the last eighteen years or so I've been practicing Taoism from a more simplistic perspective. The technique I suggested you try has worked for me in regards to what you were talking about, hence my suggestion. I am not trying to compete with you at all, if you are finding your study worthwhile, that's great. My input was meant to explain to you some things I've learned about meditation, mysticism, and such. If you were offended, I apologize. Aaron edit- I also studied Native American religions for awhile. My grandfather was full blooded Passamoqouddy.

Hello Goldisheavy, I've added you to my ignore list. Have a good life and I really do hope as you grow older you can come to terms with whatever has made you so bitter. Aaron edit- I've taken you off my ignore list in the spirit of freedom of expression (just remember having the freedom to do something doesn't necessarily mean you should do it without practicing common sense.)

Hello Fiveelementtao, It was an excellent essay, if I might add some things from my own experience. First the common consensus is that Tao can not be explained. Even then, people try to explain it and most people seem to lean towards the idea that it is neither nothing or something. Many people would say it is not-nothing, but not-something either. If you are meditating in an effort to achieve a state of not-nothing, simply saying nothing is going to create something. What I recommend is not saying anything and freeing your mind of thought, allowing it to be empty. When you can reach a state of silence, then you can reach that state of emptiness I think you are searching for. Even then, that alone does not bring someone an awareness of Tao. It seems to be a contradiction that only by learning can we un-learn, but it is also something most people who seem to have reached that state agree on. Most people hear the phrase "Be done with knowledge" and take it out of context, it is actually more like, "Be done with knowledge for the sake knowing". The more we learn without reason or simply to learn, the more we deviate from the actual Tao. It is only by accumulating that we can be rid of that which is accumulated and be empty. Also one of the reasons people chant mantras and such is to focus the mind on the subject of the chant, in that regard, if one is chanting "fire" while meditating, there is good chance that they will begin to have an experience associated with fire. You are actually pointing yourself in the direction that you want to go. If you want to reach the state of Tao, there really is no direction to go, because it is where you are right now. That is the reason they say, "Without going out of your door, You can know the ways of the world. Without peeping through your window, You can see the Way of Heaven. The farther you go, The less you know. Thus, the Sage knows without travelling, Sees vithout looking, And achieves without Ado." (1) My suggestion is to try the form of meditation that I suggested, I call it empty mind meditation, abandon your thoughts and inclinations and just let everything go. Clear your mind of thoughts and you are an empty vessel, then you can understand what they mean by "an empty vessel is useful". If you reach a state that causes you fear or where you feel overwhelmed, I would have to say that you have not reached Tao. When you reach s state where there is nothing, where on a very deep level everything seems to be as it should, then you are closer to the point you are looking for. Aaron (1) Tao Teh Ching, Chapter 47, Translated by John C. H. Wu

Hello Goldisheavy, With your last exchange, our exchange is over. My entire response has been in response to what you've said, you fail to recognize it as such, that's on you and not me. I don't need to carry on a conversation with someone who can't remain civil. Deal with your anger and come back to me, then we can continue to talk. As a word of advice, anger eats you up and prevents you from seeing the truth, even when it's staring you in the face. Until you are able to see things objectively, you'll never be prepared to receive the truth if you do happen upon it. Aaron

Hello 3Bob, Tao is manifest in everything, of course, but there is way to act (or not act) that's in accordance with Tao. That is my point, that what we learn as children is to act out of accord with Tao. This doesn't mean that anyone whose raised children has done something wrong by teaching them about right and wrong, but rather that humanity leads us away from Tao and the only way to achieve harmony with Tao is if we can see beyond ethics, virtue, and morality. You can have your view point, I just don't see things the way you do. Rather than try to prove each other wrong, I say let it go, so we can enjoy this moment for what it is. Aaron

We obviously view the same discussion differently. My first suggestion, don't resort to name calling to win an argument, it's a sign that one is desperate. Second, the answer to your question is right in front of you. If you open your eyes you will see it. Aaron Edit- Lastly, please don't take this personally. On an intellectual level I can understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with what you've said. If you wish to advocate your own beliefs, then you will allow me to disagree and practice the "live and let live" philosophy.

There are several chapters that tell us the Te is not ethics, but something else. Te is what springs forth from harmonious action with the Tao, so if one is to believe what the Tao Teh Ching says, then one can assume that if one is living in harmony with Tao, then their actions will be influenced by Te, rather than virtue, ethics, and morality. To answer your question, you and I are the sources of information. The fact that you and I can be standing in the same spot witness the same act and describe it differently to someone that asks. We may give a similar description, but rest assured it wont be exact. That's the point, no one is going to see something exactly as someone else. This is why the Tao Teh Ching asks the question, "What is the difference between Eh and O?" And "Must I fear what others fear?" Because they are explaining that opinions vary and because they vary, I should remember that the only valid experience is my own, however, if I am willing to be objective and listen to what others have to say, then I can begin to view their opinions as well. When I say what the ideal is, that doesn't mean that one should not act ethically or virtuously, that would be ridiculous. We live in the midst of humanity, not obeying its rules causes disharmony. What I am actually saying is that one who is aware of the Tao and practicing Tao will understand on an intuitive level what actions are correct and incorrect, given a specific circumstance. That understanding is not based on his previous experience, so much as allowing the Tao to spring forth in their actions. Aaron