Aaron

Hello 3bob, Semantics aren't going to help us come to an agreement. You have a very different opinion about children than I do. I see us coming into the world as perfect as we'll ever be and very close to Tao. As we grow older, the lessons we are taught separate us from Tao and we begin to see ourselves as I's and not as one. That is what I refer to when I say what we do to our children is not compassionate. Intention doesn't determine compassion, it is the result of the action, whether it eases someone's suffering. The Tao treats all things as equal, it hold no preference for one over the other. If you ask me whether it is compassionate, I will say, it depends on what you view as compassion. If you ask me whether or not compassion is an innate part of every human being, I will say, "Yes, undoubtedly yes!" Aaron

Hello folks, The point is that every opinion you have is constructed and given to you. It is not a part of your innate nature, but rather something you learned as you grew older. When you decide that something is wrong or right, it is either because you've learned it is wrong or right, or you have come to that decision based on your experiences. With that in mind, the nature of experience deems that the same two people can experience the same thing and come to different conclusions about its nature. What I am saying is that making a judgement about something is the beginning of disharmony, that what one should do is accept it for what it is. There is a higher form of living, one that springs from Tao. If one is living in Tao then they will be able to transcend the ideas of humanity, virtue, and ethics and act in a way that is beneficial for Tao. That doesn't mean that he harms nothing, but rather that he is more focused on the results of his actions, rather than the morality and ethics involved in them. When I say good and evil are the root of discord, what I am saying is that as long as one places values upon something, they will continue to have something to fight over. Asking everyone to agree on the same thing is impossible, because by the very nature of existence, we are not guaranteed to experience the same thing in the same way as everyone else. With that being said, what one should strive for is a state of detachment where one is not attached to morality or ethics, but rather what springs from the innate state within us. Aaron

Tian Shi, Hmm... I don't read chinese, but that seems like kind of stretch. Are you sure you're not applying a mystical principle where none exists? (i.e. modifying the first line so it justifies your interpretation of the last?) Aaron

I think the issue here stems from the idea that the jar or cup is representing Tao, but in my opinion, it's merely a metaphor for stopping in time. Aaron

Very good point 3Bob. There is that contradiction that in order to unlearn, we must first learn. I'm not sure what you mean by the "without wisdom how deep can compassion be", I think the expression of compassion shown by children is very deep indeed. (Wisdom is very much a construct that places value where there should be no value.) As far as the comments and discussion about childhood, I think that's a topic for another thread. I don't think what we do to our children, in any way is compassionate. Aaron

Goldisheavy, You're still missing it Gold. I've explained it as well as I can, so I'll leave you with Lao Tzu's explanation, "How great is the difference between "eh" and "o"? What is the distinction between "good" and "evil"? Must I fear what others fear? What abysmal nonsense this is!" I would suggest that as long as you have your own hate and intolerance, then no one will take anything you say as being honest, unless they feel the same hatred. I'd also suggest letting that go. Aaron edit- It would be dishonest for me not to admit I've felt the same way you have and that I've expressed it the same way you have, but at some point I woke up and realized that there was no point to it, that there was something wrong on a deeper level than just religions and dogma.

No one is perfect. I think the important thing to recognize is that we are all fallible. I don't think one has to respect or even love their parents, especially if they've caused you deep sorrow or harm, but I do think it's beneficial to forgive. A lot of what stays with us over the years are the pieces of our past that remind us of what we were and never wanted to be. We didn't want to feel lonely or sad. We didn't want to worry about footsteps at night. When those feelings linger, they continue to haunt us. The only real way to be rid of them is to look at them and accept them for what they are and let them go. There's no reason that the nine year old child from 1974 needs to still feel that pain in 2010. If we can forgive, then a lot of that pain is let go, it has no place to hide, the anger, shame, and humiliation disappears, the dross that covers our souls in darkness is wiped clean and we can be free. I think once you admit that you feel this way and move on from there, accept that those incidents from the past are controlling your life and causing your life to get out of control, then you can start to work towards reconciling your past. With that, I'll leave you with the chorus from one of my favorite songs by Jane Siberry, It can't rain all the time, The sky wont fall forever, And though the night seems long, your tears wont fall, your tears wont fall, your tears wont fall... forever. Aaron

I just wanted to thank everyone who's taken part in this thread. I think it was a wonderful exchange of ideas and I hope that what we've learned here isn't forgotten tomorrow. Again, thanks. Aaron

I don't think you get it yet Gold. As long as you continue to view things as good or bad, there will always be a reason to fight. That's the simple answer. Good and bad are constructs, they don't actually exist outside of our mind. The problems that exist, exist because people do see good and bad, yet never seem to agree on what it is. So you can argue religion causes it, but I would suggest that you look at the reason why you have such a deep seated dislike for it, come to terms with it and move on, then your argument will seem less like a mission of vengeance. With that in mind Buddhists can and have been violent, so have Hindus, and Taoists. As long as you are working on the basis of humanity, ethics, and virtue, you will have strife and discord because people are working along principles that cause those things. The key to working in harmony with each other is returning to the Tao and allowing the innate capacity of mankind to arise and work without the limits of man made constructs. I know you have good intentions, that's fine, we live within society and need to work within society, but my point is that nothing will ever change so long as society doesn't recognize the root cause of it's own misery and pain, which is it's own self imposed separation from the natural order and inability to recognize the connection each of us has to each other. That child that's picking up a gun tonight is you and it's me. The elderly lady next door that can't mow her yard is you and me. We are connected to them, whether we know it or not, there's nothing that separates us except our own unwillingness to give up the concept of I. When I becomes We, then there is a chance for peace and harmony. When rice is more valuable than diamonds, then there is a chance for peace, until then, the only thing we are doing is arguing about something that matters very little in the grand scheme of things. Aaron

Hello Goldisheavy, I think you're missing the big picture. You can argue about the evils of religion, faith, and belief, how it's the root of all evil, but that doesn't answer any questions, it just states a fact. The fact is that the human race will always find reasons to kill one another, long after God is dead and Buddha is forgotten, what will be remembered is the state of duality. As long as there is good, there will always be bad. As long as there is right, there will always be wrong. As long as there is something to disagree with, people will die, it's inevitable. You can long for the warm comfort of science and logic, but they wont save you, nor will they save me, because just like everything you've said about religion, they're a dogma unto their own, one that will probably cause as much damage as any of the major religions in the long run. Today we are learning to kill each other more efficiently than ever before. We can do it with bombs, bullets, and even diseases. The fact that it never stops or slows down should be warning light for us, we should learn from it, but we don't. We close our eyes and act like it doesn't exist. Somewhere in the world tonight a small child is being forced to pick up a gun so that he can learn to shoot a man. That child after tonight, will never be a child again. Does it really matter why he is being forced to do this? Can there be any justification in our hearts or minds for something like this? When we can drop the illusion that there is good and a bad, that there is a wrong and right, and see the world for what it is, see everything for what it is, learn not to value things, or hold one person above another, then we will find peace in the world. The problem may be that we have moved so far from the ability to do that, that it will never happen. What we have to look forward to, what our children have to look forward to, is what we've left them. I wish I could say that I have hope that the world will become a better place, but I can't, all I can say is that we each have the choice to be beneficial or a hindrance to each other. If we choose the former, then I think we will search for serenity and peace, if we choose the latter, then we will search for what is right. It's when we search for what's right that everything seems to go so wrong. I really don't want to sound like a pessimist, but I feel in a very deep way, that people are missing the point. Aaron

I see the question periodically, sometimes frantic, sometimes quizzical, and sometimes just as a joke, is there a purpose to life? As members of a secret society, at least by Western standards, you'd think we've have unequivocal answers to either aye or nay, but that's not so. What it seems most of us have, is more questions. Sometimes the questions boggle the mind and all we can do is think, "bloody hell, if there isn't a purpose, we're all screwed!" Hmm... I spent the better part of four decades seeking a purpose, in God, in Church, in meditation, in my inner psyche, and in the end the best I could come up with was that if there was a purpose I couldn't figure it out. Then one day I woke up and I got it, the answer, and it was so simple it was like it was staring me in the face. Why couldn't I have figured it out sooner? What is the purpose? Well before I tell you I need to remind you that purpose is subjective, so the purpose that I come up with might not be the same purpose that you come up with, that's one of the problems. So if someone does answer the question and does so in a way that leaves no doubt, then it better be a good answer, one that people can't argue with. Well that's all fine and good, but people can argue about anything, even the price of butter, so how are you going to answer a question as important as purpose, not just any purpose, but "the purpose" without having anyone argue with you about it. Simple, by not arguing with them. This is the trick, one I have yet to master, but can see that it works in the small bits that I have mastered. I have the option to argue with someone, to disagree with them. If I choose to disagree with them, then I have the option of how I can continue my conversation with them. Do I tell them they're an idiot and leave it at that? Do I smile knowingly at the foolish person who is unmistakably misguided? Or do I say, it really doesn't matter and let it go? I'm not going to tell you which one I choose, because I don't know how anyone is going to respond yet, when they respond you'll find out soon enough, rather I will tell you what "the purpose" is. The purpose of life is simpler than anything I thought, as I said it stared me in the face, in fact I participated in it for years without knowing, I think at times it must have been laughing at me, perhaps smiling knowingly. So here it is, without any further ado, the purpose of life is to live. Yes. I know you wanted more, so did I at first. It seems too plain, too ordinary, so much like everything else I hear and do through out the day, but it's more than just that, you're just not looking close enough. We like to believe that we're trapped on this earth, really trapped. That our bodies are somehow holding us back from achieving something so much more magnificent than anything we've experienced so far, but we haven't always felt like that. Remember being a child and feeling something soft, a kitten, a feather, or even a velor pillow, how much you really enjoyed that experience? What about the taste of ice cream? Your father ate his cone with a dour face perhaps, you looking at him, not really caring, because you knew that you had within your hands at least ten minutes of pure bliss. You were living, truly living, with a purpose that wasn't being defined, but rather experienced. That is the problem, we don't see the purpose when it's still there, because somewhere along the lines we were slowly told that the purpose that we had wasn't the purpose that we should have, that enjoying the moment wasn't enough, we had to prepare for the possibility of the next moment. When we started to look at the next moment, the moment that we couldn't see, we slowly stopped seeing the moment that we were in, actually being there, living there. Yes we breathed and felt, and we tasted, even smelled, but we didn't live there anymore. At some point the present became a hindrance, and our bodies, those shells that we enjoyed for so long, were able to take so much pleasure in, suddenly became very alien to us, as if they were no longer us, but rather something that prevented us from living. Our future became the prison that stopped us from living. The questions about the future, wealth, family, death, suddenly became more important than what was staring us in the face. People even tell us the answer, "stop and smell the roses." And yes we do, we really do, but it's never the same, because we're comparing those roses to roses we've already smelled and nothing seems to compare to that first rose, oh that glorious rose we can barely even remember, yet it's there. Of course the future sometimes haunts us, because it reminds us of the past. That's the other side of the coin, the past influences our decisions about the future. Someone hurts us and we're afraid of being hurt again. We lose money in an investment and we worry about losing it again. The list goes on and on, but the simple fact is that we're tricked into worrying about the future, because we're reminded of the bad things from the past. We're never allowed the solace of really living in the moment. My mission in life, my true mission is to live in the here and now. Not to worry about what happens tomorrow or even the next minute, but just to be able to stop and live in the present, to enjoy the taste of ice cream without comparing it to other ice creams. To spend time with my loved ones and appreciate that moment for what it is and not compare it to other moments I've had. I want to never say, "this was the best" of anything ever again, but rather allow the moments I experience to be everything they can be right then. Anyways, I'm sure by now you're bored and disappointed. I tricked you and I admit I tricked you. I didn't give you the purpose for life, because the only thing I have the answer to is the purpose for my own life. You need to find the purpose in your own life. I can tell you that we are alive because we live. I'm just not sure if that's enough for most people. If it's not, I certainly hope you find a purpose, if you don't, then I certainly hope you can find that complete peace you feel when you can just stop and enjoy something for what it is. Thanks for reading this far and I truly hope you find your purpose. Aaron

I think the difference between belief and faith is subtle, even the definitions are suspiciously similar. In my opinion it's the degree of belief that shifts one's beliefs into the providence of faith (which I believe is part of Steve's point). With that said, I have faith that the Tao exists, even though I can't prove to the average person that it does. I have a belief that there is a way that is beneficial, even though others might not see it as such. In my mind there is nothing wrong with having a belief or faith, but rather how one applies that belief or faith in their lives. I have a sister in law that is very religious (Protestant), but she is not judgmental in the least. Aaron

Hello Steve, Compassion is the expression of empathy and sympathy by definition. I think when we say we feel compassion we are actually talking about empathy or sympathy, however I think many people, if told, "I felt a tremendous amount of compassion for that person." Would understand what you were talking about. Aaron

Thank you Cowtao. I'm glad you liked it. Aaron

Hmm... that's an interesting question. I think when you define way, then you have a conscious shift that occurs, that what has gotten the person in trouble so far is the "way" they've been living and what is needed is another "way" of living. If one chooses to pursue that through God, Buddha, Tao, or some other method, then that's up to them. The important thing to come away from step two with is an understanding that one needs to recognize that there is something that can restore them to sanity. I think humility is a big part of this step and that if someone has pursued the first step and admitted that they've got a problem that they can't control, then coming to terms with the second step is much easier. Aaron

Hello Marblehead, I think talking about compassion without discussing empathy is moot. As I said, detachment isn't about regarding things without affection, but rather being able to regard everyone with affection. In that light, I think it follows that one will feel empathy, because empathy is the foundation of compassion. Compassion is the action that results from empathy, and in fact empathy is the exact thing that springs from awareness. Empathy is the one emotion that defies morality and ethics, it's the feeling one has towards another's suffering. Aaron

Hello people, Thank you for your responses. Blasto, in regards to your alternate step three, I don't care for the word ego, my goal is to keep it as simple as possible, but in the same light, that may just be an issue with me, if a lot of people felt the need for the inclusion of ego, I wouldn't oppose it. Fivelementtao- I'm not sure if self-imposed would be a good choice in this case, I also don't believe that resentments is the entirety of the step, which is why I stated it the way I did. My belief is that the purpose of the step is really to inquire into the nature of one's self, to understand what you are doing that is causing you and others to suffer. With that said, if other people like these alternatives, then so be it. I am just stating the reason I worded them the way they are. Aaron

Hello Zerostao, It depends on the circumstances and it's ultimately up to the person who is making the amends. People debate about this a lot. For me, it's not an x=y+z equation. You have to use common sense, that's why it's good to have someone whose been sober awhile helping you out, because it allows you to use them as a sounding board. Aaron edit- I should clarify it's up to the person who is making the amends to decide whether or not he should make the amends. I do feel that it is ultimately to their benefit to make every amends possible. This step is about cleaning up the wreckage of the past, not avoiding consequences, so when I say use common sense, I mean you need to look at what needs to be done, compared to the consequences of performing that amends. An example would be if you stole a car and went joy riding when you were eighteen. If you damaged that car, then you should probably make amends for it. There are several different ways you could make those amends. You could walk up to the people's house and do it face to face, risking incarceration, this would be the most direct route. However I might suggest figuring out the costs of the damages and mailing cash to the person whose car you stole, along with a letter of amends. Some might argue against this method and it really is up to the individual, but I think most people in the program wouldn't see a problem with the latter resolution, because the purpose is to make amends, not cause yourself to suffer any more than you have to.

Hello folks... I got in late. I didn't miss anyone's posts, just haven't had time to reply. I'll try and respond tomorrow. I hope everyone is doing well. Aaron

I think that discussing the degree one shows compassion for another and who should and shouldn't be shown compassion is really just nitpicking. Compassion should spring forth naturally, not be compelled or require logical debate. Compassion is an innate aspect of being human. It's what connects us to each other. I am not saying this from a Buddhist perspective, but from what I believe is a very basic Taoist understanding. Many people hear "straw dogs" and immediately believe that human beings are not required to be emotionally connected to one another. They hear detachment and immediately begin to picture some Vulcan logic, when that's not what it's about at all. It is only when one is not sentimental, when they hold no attachments or preferences for one more than another that all things can be treated equally and the Tao can be practiced. If you have to choose between your child or a stranger's child, I doubt that many would think twice about choosing to save their own child, it would be an innate response. That doesn't mean that one does not care for or have compassion for the other child, only that one has a relationship that predisposes them towards saving their own child. What seems to be the case, is that when one recognizes their connection to others, sees that connection on a deeper level, then compassion arises on its own, without prompting. I don't think one can just begin to practice innate compassion, rather it is the product of one's awareness of their place in the world. When one becomes aware, then they will understand that all of the logical debate about compassion is meaningless, because one form of compassion works along the lines of humanity and ethics, the other on a deeper spiritual principal that is brought forth from Tao. Debating whether it exists is meaningless as well, because one can only become aware of it, through awareness of one's connection to others. With that said, the innate compassion does spring forth now and again, an example would be the mother who forgives the man who, while driving drunk, ran over their child (I've seen this personally by the way). The forgiveness granted in that instance, was not one that was required, but one that stemmed from a deep connection between the mother and the man. I do feel that this is becoming a "Tao vs Buddhism" argument, when it shouldn't be. This just happens to be one of the concepts that Taoists and Buddhists (at least traditional Taoist and Buddhists) seemed to agree on. Aaron

"The third is never daring to be first in the world..." Beautifully put. Thanks for posting Marblehead. Aaron

I would add that you are "I". Your body is you, the fingernails, the toenails, the hair follicles, and even the scabs on your skin. When your body does something, you do it. You are growing your hair for instance. The only thing that convinces you that you are a passenger and your body is a structure, is your perception of it as such. With that in mind, when you begin to realize that there is no separation there, then you can begin to act on an innate level, and allow the natural course of actions to occur, then it becomes a much deeper experience. I've never heard it quite described as you've described it. I truly hope this continues to work for you. Aaron

Hello Otis, What I think you're talking about is humility. You practice humility within and without, which is how it should be practiced in my opinion. One can easily practice external humility, but having insight into one's own capacity for hubris is wisdom. Addressing it and resolving to be rid of it, to let it arise and pass, that is a commendable thing indeed. I think you are right when you talk about compassion arising when the mind is free of pride and avarice. When one realizes that they are no better or worse than others, then they can be a wellspring of compassion. Thanks for your insight. Aaron

Turn that frown upside down, And look at the snowflakes fall, Even cold you smile.

Thanks for the input Rene. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Aaron