Aaron

Thanks for the input. It's nice to see that you are concerned about other people (this is sincere, not sarcasm). I actually don't believe in the ego, there is only me, so I will accept responsibility for any poor behavior. As far as purpose, I believe on a deeper level that there is and isn't a purpose, part of realizing that there isn't a purpose is finding out that there is one first. Aaron

Hello Sloppy Zhang (and whomever else it concerns), I want to clarify that I am not opposed to anything. I understand that there are many paths one can take to find purpose, and in fact, I wont disagree that one should ask, "why should there be a purpose?" I just see it as the opposite side of the same coin. For me the important thing isn't whether someone is a Buddhist, Christian, or Muslim, but rather whether what they do is working for them. In my mind, as someone has stated, we are all from the same beginning and we are all the same person, the only thing that separates me from you is the fact I was told that this was true. It's the I complex. I had this conversation earlier tonight, right before I was going to reply to this post and one of the topics that came up was the idea that when I realize that you are me and I am you, then when I see you suffer I suffer. Compassion is not a moral action, but rather a natural response. Call it De or realization, but really it's understanding that we are not different people, that idea is all an illusion. So when I "teach" or "share" I am not simply teaching you I am teaching myself. When I choose not to listen to you, then I choose not to listen to myself. In the end you have a right to your opinion because I have a right to mine, the two can't be separate, because they aren't separate. When I can realize this, not only on a logical level, but a experiential level, then I can start to practice real compassion and understanding. Part of reaching this level of understanding, I think, comes from living in the here and now. The only moment I have any control over (if I do in fact have any control) is the here and now. If I make the most of what's happening right now, then I need not worry about the future or the past, because that's irrelevant. Anyways, rather than discuss this at further length, which isn't needed, I will say I'm sorry. I truly am sorry that I might have offended you or made you think that I didn't care what you thought, because I honestly and deeply do. The truth was that I thought I found a truth, but in the end that's not so important. What's more important is that you understand that I do care about what you thought and your idea is every bit as important as my own. Aaron

That's not it at all. It's all in how you say it. There is a polite way and an impolite way to advocate the purpose of life, especially when someone has alluded to what they believe it to be. The polite way is to say, "well that's all and good, I'm glad you find that works for you. Here's my idea, what do you think of it?" The impolite way is to say, "really you shouldn't have a purpose" or "Buddha is the only purpose" or "what the hell you been smoking Jethro, don't you know that thinkin's gonna send you to hell?" You get the idea. I have absolutely no problem with people expressing their opinion, I have a problem with absolutisms. I might be wrong and I understand that, but I work this out on the premise of faith. Faith that in the end it doesn't matter in the least, so this was a thread where I was giving a lesson, a lesson that really does work for me. If that upsets people, so be it. I shouldn't stop trying to help people because a certain few feel offended that someone as menial as I tries to help, or thinks they have anything to add to this weighty topic. The one thing I dislike is arrogance. I honestly don't feel I am any better than anyone else, but in the same way I also believe that I have as much to offer others as they have to offer me. If people have issues with authority and issues with who can and can't teach, that's their issue, not mine. I'm here to learn first and teach second, but I do have things I can teach others, and if so, why shouldn't I? If someone doesn't think it's worth learning, then that's okay, they don't have to, however if someone does feel that what I shared helped, then maybe that's a good thing. Anyways I'm off to live in the moment. I hope this is let go and we can move on. To those I offended by alluding to the idea I might have a way of making life a bit more bearable, I apologize. Aaron

Thank you for your kind response. Aaron

Thank you. The wheel has been reinvented several times over the last 12,000 years of so. Whether it's oiling the hub or adding bearings. Sometimes it needs to be reinvented. Sometimes we need to see the wheel and use it in a different way. If it provoked a reaction, then so be it. I'm not responsible for others emotional responses, only my own. In the end I hoped my revelation might help someone else to see this in a different light. I apologize if it seemed reactionary to you or meaningless. Perhaps I'm just too idealistic. Aaron

Hello SZ, No I don't want to have the discussion, but thanks for your offer. Hell Vaj, I would just recommend that you not mistake religion for spirituality. The former may ease your conscience, but it will never release you from your pain. Aaron

Hello Sloppy Zhang, I see you are not quite ready for what I have to offer you. I hope you find peace and joy in your life. Aaron

That's exactly it TzuJanLi... Thank you. Aaron

Well I tried. Obviously you're not ready for simplicity, it's all a bit too little to reconcile everything you've been told. I would however recommend rather than dismissing it, that you try it first. After all I'm not promising you enlightenment or an end to rebirth, rather simply a moment of true, unadulterated, joy. I'm sure Buddha wont send you to hell for that. Afterwards if you still feel the need to be enlightened, then go for it, nothing wrong with that. Aaron

Hello Vaj, I'm not going to debate with you about Buddhism. I am only stating that for many people, myself included, not accepting Buddhism, has nothing to do with a lack of clarity, but rather we don't believe it to be true. You've made your post regarding this, please don't bring it here. I think it's been beaten over the head over and over. Also I stated with a great deal of clarity that purpose is subjective, your purpose isn't my purpose, so why do you feel the need to make it so? Let it go, be like Buddha, enjoy your pudding and quit beating yourself in the hopes of finding enlightenment. Aaron

Thanks Melanie, I'm glad you liked it. Aaron

Vaj, The fact I never asked anyone the question about the purpose of life tells me most of you likely saw the length of the post and didn't bother to read it, instead you just spouted your own brand of religion... "Oh Yay! The Purpose of life? I already know that, don't need to read this! Insert basic Buddhist propaganda and presto. Saved myself three or four minutes of reading and no one is the wiser." Why is everyone so gung ho to answer the posts, but not actually read what others have to say? It's like the only reason some people come here is to hear themselves talk. Aaron

Honestly Vaj, I'm at the point where, if you can't explain this to a five year old and get them to understand it, I really don't want anything to do with it. Aaron

Hello Rallis, Absolutely. I'm saying that one should accept things for what they are, that in the moment that exists right now there is the potential for joy or pain, but regardless of which you experience, you should be here in this moment. The future isn't here yet and the past is gone, so where else should you be? When you can live in this moment, then you can truly appreciate life for what it's intended to be. Aaron

You do realize you're asking, "What is the purpose?" You're just trying to be clever about it. Aaron

Hmm... well I was hoping after you read what I wrote, you wouldn't care so much about either. Aaron

My opinion, you wont know for sure until you die... hmm... well apparently you wont even know after you die, so there's no way of knowing, so why worry about it? The hypothetical is the most troublesome invention of mankind. Aaron

I think this is another chapter that's pretty straight forward. First the spirit never dies. Second the spirit is given feminine properties, I think this spirit may also be the "Mother" that is spoken of in the first chapter. One of the aspects of the unfathomable Tao. In a purely philisophical examination, I would have to wonder about the use of the word spirit, but also I would be unable to deny that the author of the Tao Teh Ching had a thorough belief in spirits, and that he was referring to a literal spirit in this chapter. With that said, this is one of those chapters that lends to the idea that Taoism was meant to be a spiritual practice and not purely philisophical. Also the idea that it is hard to grasp/see/understand, follows along with the description in Chapter One. Finally the theme of inexhaustible is repeated here, reminding us that it is eternally fertile. Just my thoughts off the top of my head. Aaron

Hello Rainbow, I would remind you that we are defined by those things that are opposite of what we are. The Hero is defined by the villian, the sinner the saint, and perhaps in this case, the Taoist by the Buddhist. I would say asking someone to leave because they're saying something you don't want to hear is kind of silly. So long as they oppose your ideas, then your ideas are real and valid. Be thankful they have come to talk about the other side of things, because it makes your side that much more vibrant and real. Aaron

Hello Manitou, I was making the distinction between humiliation and humbling, i.e. if you're making a "moral inventory", as they call it in the big book, or making you're amends and you're feeling humiliated, then you need to stop and take a break, because that's not what it's supposed to do. Anyways, I was thinking of writing a recovery book based on Tao. I tried to have it pertain to the 12 steps, but because of the heavily moralistic tone, I found that they weren't compatible. Aaron

It's a very basic technique for calming the mind Alfred, you'll find it in many books (and one I used for nearly two decades). I think one who states emphatically "There is No god- no jesus" should examine history a bit more. Jesus was mentioned in numerous historical texts, so there actually was a Jesus. Also can you prove to me that there is no God? People have been trying to do this for several centuries now and no one seems to be able to convince one side or the other, so perhaps what you should say is, "I don't believe there is a God." Aaron

I was going to wait to start this discussion until the first time it comes up in the Chapter Study of the Tao Teh Ching (well clearly arises), but with the ongoing discussion in Chapter 5, I thought there might be a time and place for it in the here and now. So I propose that we examine this question and try to find evidence to support the advocation or discouragement of Morality, as it's presented within the Tao Teh Ching. Anyone who knows me, knows that I have a strong disagreement with the notion that the Tao Teh Ching advocates morality, or the notion that men should cling to morality, my own opinion, which I will hold off providing evidence to for now, is that the Tao Teh Ching is about Dao and that from Dao springs De, which, although defined as virture, isn't necessarily morality, but rather a natural way of being that springs forth when one is on the path of the Tao (not necessarily the best example, but the easiest way to understand it). With that in mind, De is not ethics, nor is it laws or moralistic behavior, that stems from the idea of right and wrong, but rather the natural way that people behave when left to themselves. When it speaks of virtue, it isn't speaking of a virtue that is meant to benefit man first and nature second, but rather a virtue that works in conjunction with all things, that when one practices this virtue, they practice it in a way that is seperate from self, and rather views the self as part of the whole, in other words I is not just me, but everything that exists. If I practice the virtue of I, in the universal sense, then I realize that, even if I place my own desires last, that I am placing my own well-being first, because my well-being is intrinsically tied to the wellbeing of everything in existence. One cannot practice De, or virtue, without first understanding Tao, hence in order to practice Te, one must first practice Tao, not in the sense that one practices anything, but rather that they are aware of the Tao and rather than work against it (that is to say one could work against it), they work with it. In that sense man is like a water bug in a brook. If the water bug goes against the flow of the water, it tires itself out and dies, but if it accepts the flow of the water as being undeniable, then it allows itself to be guided by the water. If, like the bug, I watch the way things happen and participate, not in opposition, but in harmony, then my actions are not only possible on a cosmic sense, but also harmonious. Everything I need to do can get done, because I see my needs as being determined by the flow of the water. I am small, the water is massive and undeniable, to see my needs as being in opposition of the universe, is like trying to exist in a vacuum without air, I might survive for a small period of time, but once I stop holding my breath, I suffocate. With that in mind, De is the actions that stem from my knowledge, which really is only partly knowledge, but also my experience within the water, something that becomes almost instinctual, a way of being that depends on the water and the flow of the water to exist. Hence Dao begets De, not the other way around. I think the problem that many people have is that they assume that one starts out by practicing De, and from De they beget Tao, and perhaps that can be done, but only if one can see De and understand why De is being practiced. I can observe someone practicing Tao, see the De as it manifests in them and immitate that De, and by virtue of imitation practice De, but without immersing myself in the Tao, getting in the water, I will never clearly understand the principles of Tao or the actual virtue of virtue. Anyways this is getting long and I really only wanted to start the conversation and hear what others had to say. So with that, I'll stop there and look forward to your comments. Aaron Edited- This post was moved by me to the general discussion forum.

Hello Taishi, I see a lot of hubris in your discussions, this idea that you know the truth and the rest of us are just woefully misinformed. I would recommend you look at the way you communicate with others, show a bit of respect for other people's ideas. If you continue to disagree, then you have the option of either disagreeing in silence, or to continue your not so subtle attempts to appear clever. However please keep in mind that it's not appropriate to place a "yawn" in response to someone's comments, nor is it appropriate to put a "LOL". It's akin to saying "you bore me" and "you're ideas make me laugh", which are insulting. Aaron

Tianshi, I was being sarcastic... my point is that you are translating the Tao Teh Ching to co-opt your own reality and beliefs (and hence your own absolute truth). Nothing wrong with that, I just think you're way off base, whether you speak Chinese or not. I am much more inclined to follow Henricks or Wu's translations, not only because they have extensively studied the language, but also put a great deal of time and effort into researching the characters and their actual meanings. The fact that their interpretations seem to appeal to people on a deeper level also lends me to believe they've gotten something right. This debate about whether it was meant for the ruler or the commoner is fine and good, but in the end it doesn't matter. A ruler is no better than a commoner and we all rule small kingdoms. If we can't apply those things to our own lives, then we're missing out on the importance of the message. As Dawei pointed out the Tao Teh Ching was written during a time of turmoil and change. The author of the Tao Teh Ching had a specific reason for addressing much of this to the ruler, but that doesn't change the fact that most people can feel a certain degree of reason within it, that they can apply to their own lives. You can continue to debate the correct translation, or actually give us your own feelings about what the passages mean, it's entirely up to you, but the former seems to only appeal to a limited few members here, the latter could possibly help someone to understand what's being said. Aaron

Tyler, if you do not like your teacher, find someone else. There are plenty of people that can teach you, don't hamper your own ability to learn, by choosing someone who is not willing to teach because it doesn't suit his mood. The more you try and still the mind, the harder it will be do to do it. The next time you meditate, don't try and still the mind, concentrate on something else, your breathing is good. Just focus on the way your breath enters and leaves your body. If a thought comes, address it, then let it pass. It's as simple as that. First I think you need to define God for yourself. What is God to you and are these people actually doing "God's" work? First most of the people you meet that practice these traditions, may have a distinctly different opinion of what God is. For me, there is no such thing as God, for instance, there is only the universe and me. Is there a higher power, something greater than myself? I think so, can I define it with certainty and tell you exactly what and who that is? No. Do I have to? No. I merely have to do what is right and if I do what is right by me and the universe, the question of God isn't important. Again, quit worrying about God so much. I think your problem doesn't stem from God, but rather a need for purpose. The purpose of life is living. If you live each day and accept it for what it is, then these questions will not be so important. If there is a God, I highly doubt that his intentions are for you to waste the time you have on this Earth worrying about what he wants you to do. If he wanted you to do something, don't you think he'd come to you and tell you personally? My own belief, that stems from a spiritual experience, inspires me to learn "the lesson". The reason I try to learn the lesson I'm supposed to learn, is because I believe that is what ties us to this world. If I work as hard as I can in this life and fail, then I will have another lifetime to get it right, so there is no "you must", rather it's, "you try". Success or failure, it doesn't matter. Eventually you will get it right, but worrying about getting it right is only going to stress you. There are so many things one can do with life that will give us satisfaction and purpose; raising a family, creating art, spending time with friends and loved ones, and yes, all of this is transient, but it serves a purpose. To discount these things as pointless or a waste of time is not only silly, but wrong. Do what you can with the time that you have. Don't worry so much about enlightenment, you're already enlightened, just no one has told you yet. Tonight as you prepare for sleep think about the things you want to know and the things that bring you peace. Think about the fact that everything in this reality is defined by you. If you can define reality, then certainly you can define your purpose. Aaron