Aaron

You know I did find something regarding being celibate in the Tao Teh Ching today. The passage is talking about a new born babe and goes as such (Wu Translation), "It has not known the union of the male and the female, Growing in its wholeness, and keeping its vitality in its perfect integrity." Other than this passage, I didn't find anything else that advocates celibacy, I'm not sure if this does either, but it does seem to say that once you've known "the union" you're vitality no longer has perfect integrity. I'm wondering if the same goes for masturbation? Aaron

I think that's definitely wise. Aaron

I saw Donovan in concert in '95 or '96, great song. Never thought I'd be one of those people who said that... hehehe. Age is sneaking up on me. Aaron

Because merely asking the question means a part of you thinks you are better. Wisdom, the wisdom that Dawei is referring to is not expressed in words or platitudes, but rather in action. That is why the Sages did not teach through talking, because what they had to teach could not be taught in words. Remember, "the Tao that can be talked about is not the eternal Tao, the name that can be named is not the Eternal Name." Wise sayings are not wise, because wisdom doesn't arise from knowledge, but from experience. "Few things under heaven are as instructive as the lessons of Silence, Or as beneficial as the fruits of Non-Ado." Aaron

In the second year of my meditation, I experienced several incidents where I perceived that I was outside my body watching people doing things. The one I remember the most was looking at a family, A father, mother, and son, looking at me, almost as if they were looking behind me. I realized that they were in a mall and they were looking at a display in a window, my consciousness just happened to be within the space of that display at that time. I can't say that this was real, that I actually was someplace else, but it did seem very real at that time. I had other experiences as well, suddenly being deep in the woods, dark woods in fact, with very little light, seeing the dappled rays of sunlight come down through the leaves and rest upon the forest floor. None of these experiences was particularly insightful, and in fact they began to worry me, since it was not at all a natural feeling, to be outside one's own body. It passed after time went on. I'm not sure I would encourage one to pursue this as a means of enlightenment or greater understanding, in my mind it is more akin to a parlor trick, in that it has the illusion of power, but in fact it is very distracting. Everything you need to know you can find where you are at right now. Anyways, I just thought I might share that experience. Aaron

Hello folks, The Tao Teh Ching subforum is up and running. We're currently studying the chapters of the Tao Teh Ching in order. We're on Chapter Three right now and Chapter Four will be posted tomorrow. This is a great chance to learn more about the Tao Teh Ching and also ask any questions you might have about the Tao Teh Ching. If you have any questions about the subforum please feel free to message me and I'd be happy to answer them. If you would like to visit, you can find it listed under the Taoist Discussion header. Aaron

So my question, with utmost respect, is simply, is it working for you? Don't answer right away, think about it and let me know. Aaron

That was a very interesting read. Is there any explanation for why they came up with those definitions? I'd be interested in reading how they came to there decisions, not so much for validity, since it seems quite logical once one thinks about it, but rather just to see how it plays out within the characters. Aaron

Hello Stigwead, I like Alan Watts description of sight in "The Book". He states that the best way to understand vision is to imagine it as touching things that we can't touch with our hands. with that said, if one seriously looks at the difference between Wisdom and Knowledge, my attempt at a humorous post also makes a point. Knowledge is not so much the application of knowledge, but rather the accumulation of what one knows. One can be knowledgeable and not wise. Wisdom is the application of what one knows. The use of knowledge in a common sense fashion. One that is wise knows how to work with nature, one who is knowledgeable knows how nature works. Aaron

Hello Dmatt, Thanks for the clarification. I'm not sure where I said he said that, perhaps you misunderstood my intentions? Aaron

Hello Non, In the world of addiction, physical addictions are characterized by those addictions that result in physical withdrawals when one stops using them. In the case of alcohol and heroine, if one stops cold turkey and they have reached a certain degree of use, then they can actually go into shock and die. I've never heard of this happening with sex, so I wouldn't classify it as a physical addiction, rather a psychological one. Aaron

Hello Ryan, I liked what you had to say about sex and self. I think the one thing that you also need to consider is that if one looks at too much pornography, they begin to see people as object, rather than people. Sex, as you stated, stops being a sensual encounter, and instead becomes simply a stimulus. Sex isn't supposed to be simply about sex, it's an intimate experience between two people, one that is meant to strengthen, not only the physical bond, but also the emotional and spiritual bond. Pornography can't really do any of these things. With that said, there's nothing wrong with masturbation, especially if you're aroused. In fact it is a healthy way to relieve tension. There's a reason most people learn to masturbate shortly after puberty, because it helps us to prepare for sex with another person and also become comfortable with our sexuality. Most people who have hangups about sex, started to have those hangups at an early age because they were taught this very natural behavior was wrong. I would say, that eliminating the influence of lust is unnatural, and rather, what one really needs to do is become comfortable with themselves and their sexuality. Once that is achieved, I think you'll find that your desires will be diminished and you wont be as influenced by lust. Also remember, lust isn't bad, rather lust is our bodies and minds telling us that we are attracted to someone else. Aaron

I'm hesitant to encourage anyone to commit to celibacy, if only because sex is a natural part of human life. I can't think of any animal that abstains from sex. Monkeys masturbate, dogs hump everything they can, and the list could get on, but you get the picture. I think denying oneself sex is simply not natural. There are entire generations that have been scarred because they were taught that sex was bad, that masturbation caused angels to cry, and that giving in to your sexual urges meant you were sinful. I bought into that crap when I was younger, but somewhere around the age of twenty or so, a wise man told me, if we weren't meant to masturbate, then nature wouldn't have allowed us to grab our penises with our hands. I would say, that if this is causing you anxiety, grief, and discomfort, why keep doing it? No one is going to get hurt if you masturbate. If however you do masturbate and someone dies or some natural disaster occurs, let me know, because that would certainly change my opinion about this whole topic. Aaron

So now I can't ask you what you thoughts on happiness or joy are? My you're really putting me in a tough spot here! No worries. I know what you're saying, I'm just keeping you on your toes. Aaron

Hello Sloppy Zhang, I'm pretty sure it's not so much what I want, but rather an intuitive feeling that the Guodian texts, at least what I've read of them seem to be incomplete. I think, like many philosophies, the general ideas were laid down, but it took several centuries for others to come along and add to them to make the complete philosophy. This is actually my conversion or sorts, because for the last six months or so I've argued for translating the Guodian so we can get a clearer idea of what early Taoism entailed. In reviewing the two different texts, I can see that the Wang Bi text was picked up and used, not necessarily because of the Confucian influence, but because it made more sense in the broad scheme of things. In regards to the Tao being impartial, I can agree with that, I was misreading Dawei's interpretation. Aaron

Hello Dawei, Hmm... so there's no need for forgiveness. That's good to know, all this time I could've been festerning over old wounds. All I really need to do is be impartial. I'm being sarcastic by the way. I can't see how impartiality is enough in this instance. What are your feelings about anger or mercy? Something that I'm beginning to realize is that, even though certain sections of the Tao Teh Ching aren't present in the oldest texts, I feel that in a way the oldest texts are incomplete, as if there's something missing from them. Perhaps the later versions that came along were intending to fill that void? Aaron

If that works for you, then keep working it. Aaron

Hello Unmike, I'm sorry about taking so long to get back to you. I think there's no reason why mercy and forgiveness shouldn't be applied to oneself. I think in a way this is implied, that if one knows the Tao then they will be doing this anyways. I think it's a good practice to keep in mind that even if one forgives, they still should not forget. Treat yourself like you do anyone else, that's what I believe anyways. Aaron

Hello people, A few comments... The whole knowledge vs wisdom thing is tricky, especially in regards to the Tao Teh Ching. I'm glad a new thread was made for this, since I think it really does deserve some more exploration. Apech, I liked your description very much, I think it was an excellent example of the principles at work. Dawei, I certainly hope you keep informing us of the differences between the older texts and the received text, it's interesting stuff, for sure. I look forward to learning more about it. I read what you've had to say today, but I want to take some time to digest it before I make any comments. My instintcual response is that Confucius infiltrated the Wang Bi edition. Since the Confucius and Wang Bi topic is really something that would be best discussed on its own, I think what we should explore here is how different is the Henricks (and Guodian) version of the Tao Teh Ching from the Wu and Feng? In that regard, I think you make some good arguments regarding how the text should be interpreted. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to us. Aaron

Hello Xeno, That's for you to decide. I would say that no one has the right to tell you to do this, because, despite hearing your story, we don't have the entire perspective, you do. If you need to do it, then do it, but if you don't, then don't. Just keep in mind this is about you. If your hopes are that you might be able to have a relationship with you mother, then I would seriously keep in mind the track record she's had in the past. Your mother had your entire childhood to make these things right and she made her choices. This shouldn't be about her in the least, so my word of caution would be, do what you KNOW in your heart is right and correct, but don't allow someone else to make that decision for you. Aaron

Hello Xenolith, Whenever someone close to us hurts us, it's very hard, I know. But in the same sense, forgiveness isn't about calling someone up and saying, 'I forgive you' or 'I'm sorry', it's about allowing those things that are harboured inside of you to be set free, to give you freedom from those emotions that keep you chained to something that happened so many years ago. There have been people I've forgiven, that I've never said 'I've forgiven you' too and I doubt I ever will. What we need to do in these instances is what's best, and sometimes what's best is letting it go, allowing the past to be the past, so that the future can be the future. I know that it's hard to understand everything that your mother did or why she did it. To say she was selfish would be an understatement, but this really isn't about her, it's about you and your ability to grow as a person without the emotional baggage of the past holding you down so you can't swim. Forgiveness is dropping those bags, so that you can, not only swim, but you don't end up drowning because of them. I'm not so sure how well you'll be able to do that by writing a book. I hope that you find peace with what happened and I am very sorry that it happened to you. Aaron

Hello SeriesofTubes, I've never heard of that form of therapy before, but it's an interesting approach. I agree with you regarding the need for forgiveness, but I think in the same way mercy applies. Marblehead, As SoT pointed out, there's nothing that says one needs to forget, just forgive. I think the reasons that SoT gave are an excellent example of why. I'm not sure what the whole idea was, but I get the general idea that it involves forgiving, regardless of the other persons regret or guilt. Aaron

According to the Dungeons and Dragons rule manual, Intelligence (i.e. knowledge) is the accumulation of what one knows, Wisdom is the application of what one knows, in other words common sense. Any deeper than that and I start to get the jitters. Aaron

I like what you've said. Wow indeed. Aaron