Aaron

VMarco, I think you fail to understand the quote. It's referencing Chuang Tzu, not Jed McKenna. Some things I might recommend. An enlightened man has no need to justify their actions. An enlightened man is compassionate to those around them. Those that they meet know he is enlightened, for his wisdom cannot be denied. You have a great academic knowledge of the topics you talk about, but little to no practical knowledge, which is why you have such a skewed understanding of the short path and long path. In regards to taoism, let me be clear, you have the greatest misunderstanding of Tao of anyone here, because you try to label it and define it, when it cannot be. The only way for one to understand the Tao is to look within themselves and find it there. You have yet to do this. If you had I would know. Now do yourself a favor, stop attacking people arbitrarily and start practicing what you preach. Be done with the hatred that festers in your heart, a hatred you deny, but everyone around you sees clearly. Stop justifying your actions, claiming that they stem from a higher purpose, when they are nothing more than the rationalizations of an angry man. It's up to you to change who you are. To close, I want to make something clear, just because you write a book about something, doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. Maybe if you gave up this notion that you "know" and started to listen to what others have to say, you might learn a bit about the topic at hand. Aaron edited for compassion's sake

I would suggest, and this is just a suggestion, that perhaps it's time to do some good old fashioned sitting meditation. Find a quiet place, sit and meditate. Just clear your mind, don't go into it with the idea that you're deconstructing yourself or trying to reach some deeper meaning, just sit and clear your mind. I think this will give you a great deal of peace and help to quiet some of those distractions that have been causing you to suffer. Aaron

that's a closed wound why would you want to reopen it? Are you so intent on causing him grief that you would bring up an old argument that's been long done with? One that you know will only inflame tempers and cause more grief to those who participate in the discussion? I would encourage anyone that's participating in this thread to let this comment die here so we can continue this discussion without having those old wounds cloud our judgement. And Dainin, remember, one's spirituality is judged by how he communicates with others. A man who has compassion does not bring up another's past in order to cause him to suffer. Revenge is a dish best never eaten. Aaron Edit: I also ask the moderators to make sure that those people who would like to bring up this discussion regarding dogs in this thread know that there's already a thread for that and to make sure that that discussion is kept in that thread, rather than taking this one off-topic.

I can't promise anything. Aaron

Hi Shenlun, You're very welcome, but keep in mind this kind of reply just seems to reinforce your own negative perceptions of yourself. And although there was some truth regarding your self evaluation, it doesn't mean it's healthy to dwell on those negative aspects. I will concur, you have a long way to go spiritually before you should start offering others advice, but don't be so hard on yourself, I'm sure your intentions were good. Aaron

You're absolutely right. They should have given up all of their possessions and just moved away in poverty, which is what happened to those who left. Can you begin to see why they did it now, or should I explain it a bit more? Aaron

Hmm... well he should've stopped there. Anyways I edited my post. I wasn't intending to be an ass, just clarify some things. He right in this regard. The only one who holds these answers is Jetsun. The answer is within him, he just needs to look. If it helps him out, I can assure him that finding that answer will not result in the end of Jetsun, he will still be there after it's all done. Of course one could pose the question, why offer psychiatric help for a spiritual problem, especially if the problem isn't psychiatric in nature? Aaron

I really like the quote. Anyone who's been there can identify with it. As for misguidance, we're all misguided sometimes, sometimes the only thing we can do is continue on our path and hope we don't fall off a cliff. Of course we should refrain from guiding others if we don't know where they're going or where they actually are as well. It would be nice if there was a GPS for the soul, that would solve a lot of problems. Aaron

Or not say anything at all. A bad joke is still a bad joke. Aaron

I understand you might be joking, but seriously, this isn't something one should offer as advice, even joking. I will break down a few things for you, as simply as possible, so that you might understand how one should respond to someone else's suffering, rather than make light of it and trivialize it. First, anyone who experiences enlightenment understands that the truth is that duality and non-duality are the same, we only perceive them to be the different. One cannot have duality without non-duality, just as one cannot have happiness without suffering. So to think that understanding the nature of non-duality will suddenly free you from all the pangs and suffering associated with it, is not only silly, but unrealistic. Understanding non-duality merely puts duality in perspective, where we go from there is our choice. Taoists choose to see pleasure and suffering as integral to our own existence, it makes us better people when we become aware of that. Understanding suffering allows you to understand your connection to others, to empathize with others, but more than that, you cannot have one without the other, as I said before they are both the different sides of the same coin. If we could choose to be rid of suffering, then we must also choose to be rid of pleasure. Enlightenment doesn't free us of these things, it allows us to see through them, to see that they are not the end all of existence, in seeing this we can transcend suffering and happiness, not see them as the entire motivation of our existence. When one reaches this point in their practice, it is only natural to have fear, for they see this as the end of who they are, but that's not the case, in fact it's the beginning of deeper understanding of who they are. They can see beyond the thoughts and ideas that make them who they are to the source of what created those thoughts, they see beyond themselves to something that is indescribable. In seeing this they see, as the Buddhists say, the face that existed before their face. Now in seeing this face you don't suddenly lose your face, it remains, you just see it in perspective. As the Buddhists say, Before enlightenment you chop wood and carry water, after enlightenment you chop wood and carry water. The only difference is you do it with a greater understanding of what chopping wood and carrying water means. When I chop wood, I don't chop wood just for me, but for everyone. The wood I chop is meant to help all those who need it. The water I carry is meant to quench the thirst of everyone who needs it. Before enlightenment I only chop wood and carry water for myself or those I think need it, afterwards I understand that everyone needs the wood and water I have and that no one should be denied for any reason. Aaron edited for the sake of compassion... Yay!

Yes, those who veer too far off the beaten path are often times persecuted for doing so. This is how religion keeps people subservient. If you fear being ostracized by those you love, the worst you'll ever do is stop believing in your heart. The Jews that remained in Spain after the inquisition had to practice in secret in order to keep their religion alive. There are rumors that there are a few that still do. Religion poisons spirituality through enforced conformity. Aaron

Jetsun, Why do you have to give up what makes you, you? How can you give that up? Does a monk who reaches enlightenment cease to be that monk? Does he suddenly become someone else? You can't give these things up, they're always there in the duality, but what you can do is see through them and realize that they are not everything in existence. Even then, seeing through them does not wipe them from existence, you only realize them for what they are and begin to see yourself in a complete light, not just in the light you've seen yourself in so far. Aaron

Wiki pedia has some interesting information about wet dreams. apparently they are far more common in the east then in the West. Also in the East the rate of masturbation is significantly lower than in the West. I think it's just the different way of handling urges. I'd suggest not freaking out about it and just accepting it out the natural course of action. Aaron Edit- I've never had them either.

no, the poison has just been redirected. I think this is just our attempt to make light of something we don't want to face. after all the idea that we might have been fooled can be overwhelming, so what better way to deal with it then to make jokes? Aaron

I had mentioned the Ottoman Empire in another thread and it caused a bit of a ruckus. In order to prevent that thread from going horribly off topic, I've started this thread so we have a place to discuss the practices of the Ottomans and how the expansion of the Empire effected the views of Islam in the West, as well as the reason why there is so much animosity and hatred today between Muslims and Christians. Aaron

I think it would be wise for those who have followed this thread to remember a few things... First, religion defines, more than anything else, who we perceive ourselves to be as a person. Even if we are not raised with a strict religious background, we more often than not, perceive ourselves to be a part of the religion of our birth. Most Americans for instance will identify themselves as christian, even if they might not have stepped inside a church in a decade. Second, religion defines, more than anything else, who we mistrust and dislike. The discussions regarding Christians and Muslims is a good example. Most Muslims perceive westerners as decadent and immoral, even though they have never visited a Western country, just as most Westerners mistrust Muslims, viewing most as being anti-west, wanting to overthrow everyone. Third, how does this benefit religions and how does it poison spirituality? Well that one I wont answer, I think it's best if you come to that answer on your own. Aaron

I tend to go with the flow, and sometimes that's not always the best thing to do. especially when you want to keep things on track but then again maybe it's good to go off track every once in awhile. Aaron

Sinasencer, You're lucky then, Turkish people have great food and know how to have fun. I'm not actually talking about the Turks by the way but the Ottoman Empire. I think the 2 can be talked about separately since most Turks were not involved in the general practices of the Ottoman Empire as a government. Aaron

Very well said. I would be hard pressed to say it any better. but I would add that is important too remember that right and wrong are constructs of the mind, in reality there is no right or wrong there just is. when you can understand that, then you can begin to see how you are related to everything in creation. For it's not just that you are God, but that you are everything that has ever existed and will ever exist. God is just a name we give something that we can never really understand. however to fall into the trap of non duality means that you fail to see how you are connected to everything. For duality is very much a part of this world that we live in. it isn't just here so that we can have a perceptual context in which to view things, but it is here so that we can have an emotional connection to those things that are around us. This is also the trap of suffering, and why Buddhist feel that it is necessary to see through duality in order to be done with suffering. But we can never really be done with suffering (or duality) for in order to be done with suffering you must also be done with pleasure. the fact of the matter is that everything in existence has a purpose, even if we don't understand that purpose. in many cases we are not meant to understand this purpose. this is why it Lao Tzu tells us that the Tao that can be spoken of it is not the unmentionable or original tao. oftentimes the best we can do is just understand what is within ourselves for their the answer lies. the reason I say religion is the poison of spirituality is because it directs us without when we should be looking within. Aaron

Hello Recep Ivedik, I'm going to point out that your method of addressing my post was not to come up to me with open hands, but to draw a sword and start swinging. You need to work on that. A few clarifications, not all devsirme were castrated, only those who were to work in harems. Many Devsirme ended up working in the sex trade in bath houses, something I noticed you didn't mention. The price of a light skinned boy could be 10-100 times that of other slaves. They chose devsirme for their looks, hence the reason parents disfiguring their son's faces. I have studied history and I know that many crusaders went to Israel poor men and came back very rich. I also know many men who went on Jihads came back rich as well. My point is that men wage war in the name of religion, but the reasons then and now are relatively the same, the pursuit of material wealth. This is why I say religion, specifically organized religious orders, are the poison of spirituality. Now this isn't the thread to discuss this, if we want to discuss the practices of the Ottomans I would be happy to, just start a new thread. I don't want to continue this discussion here, because it has is a sensitive topic and not necessarily in line with the intention of the original post. If you want to reply to what I've posted, please feel free to cut and paste it into a new thread I am starting in the off-topic section on the Ottoman Empire and I'll be happy to respond. Also, I said explicitly that nothing justifies these kinds of atrocities, but that without understanding the underlying causes there is no way to really stop them from happening. I had no malice in my heart when I started this thread, rather you responded emotionally to what I said without understanding the context, which is that many people use religion to justify their actions. It happens on this forum and elsewhere. I am a firm believer that if a man is only acting righteous to appease a higher power, then his actions are worthless. It is only when someone does an act out of compassion, with not motive other than compassion, that his actions are virtuous. Aaron

Thanks for the advice, but I'd rather just do what I know in my heart is the right thing to do. If a dog is dangerous, then who am I to let it wander around harming innocent people? Aaron

I don't think people are attacking you because you are muslim, or because of a repressed bigotry towards Islam, but rather how you address people. When you come at a man with a sword pointed at him, what does he do? If you come at a man with your hands open and your arms stretched out, what does he do? A man's spirituality can be easily seen by how he communicates with others. Now with that said, the crusades were a bloody business, and I mean business. It wasn't about religion, but riches, yet in the same way we examine the crusades, we can look at many of the jihads and find the same thing, especially the early conquests of Spain. Even in recent history there were horrible practices, such as the devsirme, which still way heavily on the conscience of those whose ancestors suffered under it. We don't mention these things when we talk about Serbia and Bosnia, but the fact of the matter is that the majority of the hatred the Christians had towards Muslims was misplaced. It was a hatred handed down generation after generation, based on things that happened over two hundred years ago. The Christians remembered the oppression because their parents remembered it. The muslims in that area most likely felt this anger was misplaced, that it was strictly racism that was occurring. After all the Ottomans believed they were doing the Christian boy's that they took a service by castrating them and forcing them into the service of the Empire, they believed it was much better for the boys to be converted and have the potential to become high ranking officials in the government, rather than live as peasants in darkness outside of Islam, however the loss of one's child is never easily forgotten and as for the loss of hundreds of thousands of children, well that's not easy to forget, even after a few centuries. None of that is an excuse for the atrocities that are happening or have happened in modern times, however without remembering the past, tracing the hatred back, we will never find a way to quell it. Out of respect for Islam and it's precepts, I wont dishonor the religion, but what I will say is that I was told by an imam that according to Islamic law there was nothing wrong with the Devsirme, in fact there was nothing wrong with slavery at all. However I wonder if we look at the pain and suffering caused by it, if we can still honestly say there was nothing wrong? When I say religion is the poison of Spirituality, I'm not saying Mohammed was, or Christ, or Buddha, but the leaders who came after who used it as means of control over the people were the poison. The words of the prophets are misused, even today. As for Muslim holy men, Rumi is a favorite of mine. I think his views on the notions of love and compassion, of insight into the self, were profound and beautiful. The fact is every religion has a beautiful side, but it also has an ugly side, it's only when we address it and call it out that we can put it down, much like a rabid dog. It's only when we see the past clearly, understand the wrong done and do something to make it right, to let others know that we are sorry for what was done in the name of religion, that there is the possibility of removing the poison that lives within it today. Just so I'm perfectly clear, I'm not saying religion is evil, I'm saying people use religion for evil purposes. Aaron

That's great. If that's what you want to do, more power to you. I'm a firm believer that people should practice as they choose and not as others instruct them to. I hope you find what you need. Aaron

VMarco, You can't be free of belief systems,your declaration of being on the short path only proves this point. I know what you mean, only because you have inundated me with the intricacies of the short path for the last year or so. I understand it's what you believe and that it is a formal belief system (actually by definition), even if you don't. The fact is, we are drawn to others that hold the same beliefs as we do, it's only natural. In a perfect world, everyone doesn't think alike, they just allow everyone to think as they want to. My message was never to do away with religion or spiritual teachings, but rather to understand what they are and make decisions for yourself. By the way, Osho was seriously disturbed. I'm surprised you chose to post a video of him, since he's about as far away from the short path you can go. Aaron

Osho is one of the most disturbing "gurus" I've seen. He has caused immeasurable suffering to his followers, especially the children in his organization. Little fun fact, his follower's children didn't attend public school, but rather a private one where they were not taught history as it actually is, but an adulterated one that showed Osho to be a gift to the world. He was a monster with a hedonistic message that attracted people who wanted to give up their responsibilities. No better than David Koresh or any other cult leader in my book. Aaron