Aaron

Religions are used to oppress people and subvert them to the moral status quo. They use this by playing on people's fear and are so successful in institutionalizing their beliefs because they ingrain these misconceptions into their adherents from childhood. Whether it is Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, or Christianity, the fact is, the practitioners of these beliefs rarely had a chance from the start, rather they were indoctrinated from an early age into the "truth". Sin is not real, it's subjective. Karma is not real, it's subjective. The "truth" is not real, it's subjective. If you need to make the subjective seem objective, then it's important to reinforce these ideas when one is malleable and defenseless to any opposition. Any child of a religious family who denies the existence of God (or Buddha) is not going to be told that it's alright to question the existence of God (or Buddha), more likely than not, they'll be punished and told that it's a mortal sin to question these things. Freedom of speech and expression isn't reserved for children sadly. Aaron

Actually Lao Tzu was advocating learning from one's own experiences, rather than depending on others for their "truths". He constantly reiterates throughout the Tao Te Ching that the Sage teaches, not through words, but through actions, and that the truth is subjective and something we should never trust. In other words, when someone tells you a truth, question it immediately, even if it seems to be truthful. So be done with knowledge, doesn't mean to be done with learning, but to be done with book learning. Chapter 20 is one of the most misunderstood chapters in the Tao Te Ching and one routinely ignored by the teachers of Taoist practices. When you hear a teacher say that they have the "truth" or are practicing "real" Taoism, then you should certainly question that teacher, if for no other reason than the fact they misunderstand the teachings of Lao Tzu within the Tao Te Ching. Aaron

you really don't want to get into an argument with me regarding the Tao Te Ching. I think there's a good chance I've been studying it longer than you've been alive. however, far be it from me to prevent you from making baseless accusations about my beliefs or practices. Aaron

Hmm... it seems to me that you have a duty to return what's been given to you. I don't think you should leave, but rather stay and share what you've learned, especially if it's of value to you. Aaron

Anyone interested in memory should examine the Palace of the Mind method developed by the Indians (the ones in India). They have a very fascinating way of teaching their children how to remember things. Rather than go into a detailed explanation, I'll suggest you look it up, because to be honest I'm a little foggy on some of the particulars, but what I do know is that, not only does it work, but after a good deal of practice the users of this method can have almost perfect recall of whatever they have stored in their palace. Interesting stuff indeed.

I want to clarify some things, first it may seem that I would like to see all religions wiped off the face of the earth, and perhaps there's some truth to that, but I also recognize the right for people to believe what they want to believe. What I don't recognize is teaching children this stuff as if it's fact, rather than allowing them to come to an age where they can make up their minds regarding religion and deciding for themselves. Case in point, we tell children that Santa is real, that he makes a list of everyone who's been naughty and nice (and that he checks it twice, apparently quite diligent in this regard), but when they get to a certain age we tell them the truth. However we have no problem telling them that Karma is real (or God) and that it isn't a fairly tale, but quite real. We reinforce this in them until they have an unwavering belief that it is true, however we have no factual evidence to back this up. It seems to me that Santa Claus is more benign than the idea of Karma or Sin, if you're going to allow them one delusion, let it be Santa and get rid of the Sin and Karma crap. In regards to atheists and agnostics not caring about their body's or considering themselves insignificant, that's hogwash. I think atheists and agnostics have a very positive image of who they are and they tend to be just as moral and upright as the next guy, they just tend to view their morality from a more cause and effect standpoint, rather than a "do this or you're going to be reincarnated into an insect or go to hell" one. I'm agnostic by the way, but not because I believe in God. I firmly deny the existence of God, however I don't deny that there is something greater than myself, however I choose to view this greater being as my own being, the fact that I am the Universe and the Universe is me. I am everything and everything is me. That's really the only reason most people don't consider me an atheist. And I also firmly believe that world is wondrous and beautiful (and so are we) and that there is absolutely no reason to look for something else to recognize that we are indeed important and significant, we just need to look within ourselves. Now how do I remain a moral person, if I don't believe that someone or something is keeping track of all my behavior and choosing to punish me for my wrong doings? Well have you ever done something nice for someone and seen them smile and thank you for it? Well that's how I stay moral, because I really like it when other people are happy, because it makes me feel happy too. Call it an attachment, or whatever, but to me there's not many other things that can compete with being compassionate. In fact I really do consider a thank you more than enough payment for a kind deed. Aaron

We have been born into a world that questions everything. There are no longer any certainties for most of us. God is in question, morality is in question, even our ability to justify going to work each day is in question. We look for answers and there are plenty of people with answers. They know what we're looking for and they're willing to give them to us. Some give us old religions from the East with a new modern Western flair, they tell us that the problem is US, that we only need to realize there is no ME or I, simply nothing and that will solve everything. Some give us new age philosophies, habits for successful people, believing that what we lack is the ability to function successfully in this world, not realizing that success is meaningless if what you're missing can't be found in the material world. Then there are those who tell us that it's our beliefs that are wrong (here, here) and that what we need to do is give up all these old ideals and start again, live an ethical life, a moral life, not by other's standards, but by our own. But what if none of these things are the answer? What if we spend our entire life trying to attain one thing or another, enlightenment, wealth, power, happiness, but find that in the end none of it was really satisfying? What if even an end to suffering isn't enough. I remember the story of a prominent Zen monk in Japan who after decades of practice was being recognized for his life's work. Many people attended the celebration, yet when it came time for him to receive his reward he cried out that he wanted a family, a wife, and children. They dragged him away and that was that. I don't know what happened to him, but it's a sad story to me, because I really wish after all that time he spent dedicated to Zen he could've found what he was looking for. In the same way I wonder about all the people I see here on these forums trying to prevent the loss of their jing. They decide to become celibate and practice in order to achieve a longer life, but at what cost? Forty years down the line will they look back at their youth and say, "I'm happy I decided to stay celibate, rather than have a family and children." I think the problem we have today is one of introspection, or perhaps the lack thereof. We are so certain their must be an answer and that it must be out there, that we tend to forget that maybe the answer isn't out there at all, but inside us. I'm not going to lie to you, I have an agenda, but it's not a me vs, them agenda really, but a you vs. them agenda. I want people to think for themselves, to take the initiative and look within for their answers. I have tons of answers. Act compassionately. Do no harm to others or yourself. Live your life as best you can, without concern for what other's think of you. The problem is that without experiencing these things and coming to terms with them yourself, they're hollow. If you want contentment, peace, and serenity in your life, but you're not willing to do the work yourself, but rather depend on others for that peace and serenity, then is it really your peace and serenity in the end? I will end this post by offering some advice to the youth among us. When you are old and gray you will not lament the stupid things you did when you were young, so much as the stupid things you didn't do. A wasted youth is better by far than a wise and productive old age. Don't worry so much about all this meaning of life crap, worry about living your life and enjoying it. Take the time to live and do what you want to while you can, there will come a time when you can't do that anymore, because of children, or a job, or the weight of the world. Don't miss out on what you have now, because you're afraid of what you might not have in the future. Live life each day to the fullest. Experiment, enjoy, and remember that today is all you really have, so don't treat it like yesterday, or waste it on tomorrow, live it and enjoy it, and then, maybe when you're old and gray you can look back and say, "I wasted much of my youth, but it sure was worth it." Salvation is for those who are lost, you're not lost, so long as you know where you are each and every day. Aaron edit- "A wasted youth is better by far, than a wise and productive old age" is a quote from a "Wasted Youth" by Meatloaf. Great song by the way.

What's the point? Well the greatest point of all, to know yourself and who you are at the root of your being. The greatest form of enlightenment doesn't come from believing in something that doesn't exist, but understanding what does. The world is so wondrous as it is, why do we need to add all these mythologies into the mix. I'm very happy that many small children are being raised free from the delusions and oppression of religion. I only wish I had that chance when I was a child. Aaron

I can only hope that the majority of our youth are atheists or agnostic, because that actually gives me a little hope for the future. It would be nice to see the next generation do away with religion, mythology, and all this other crap and focus on the real world around them. once we get rid of all of those poisons, then we can turn towards meditation once more, but not from a religious view, but from an honest examination of who we actually are. Aaron

examine your life, your motives, and go from there. there's no reason to drown yourself in religion and mythology, when the real life has so much more to offer you. and another thread someone said that the majority of our youth are agnostic or atheist, and I say thank goodness for that, because now at least there's a little hope for the future.

well according to these standards World War 3 has started about once every 6 months for the last 4 decades, so maybe this is more like World War 307?

Actually science is very much a philosophy, a fact most scientists would like to refute, but are rarely able to. Just because they are objective, doesn't mean they don't follow a specific philosophy, let call it the "scientific method", for lack of a better word. In regards to Taoism and Science, I think they're both tied together, the only difference is that most Taoists respect nature and are unwilling to try and control it, whereas most scientists feel it's their duty to learn how to control it. Aaron

Path, Where did I ever say anything about not being responsible? You take responsibility for your actions, that's just common sense. I didn't think it needed to be mentioned. However, just because you're parents have planned your life out, doesn't mean you have to follow that plan. If you don't want to be a lawyer, don't be a lawyer! If you don't want to take over the family business, then don't take it over. My major problem with people that argue about responsibility is that they have been so brainwashed by modern society (East or West) that it's hard for them to realize they can do something else. What I'm advocating is that the young should enjoy life, take chances, learn what life is about from their own experiences, what you're advocating is that they climb into a box and whenever someone zaps them they eat a treat. I'm sure that you're parents taught you this was correct, so you really don't know any better, just as I'm sure you don't realize you can even question your belief. Celestial, In regards to immortality, if someone has invested the fear of death into a young person so deeply that they forego living a youthful existence in order to practice Qigong (meditate, become saved through Christ, etc.) then the person that did that should really pay, because that's just about the sickest thing anyone could do. However, if they're sincerely interested and enjoy what they're doing, then more power to them. Again, it's about self exploration, allowing the young person to understand the world through their own experience, rather than have that experience methodically dictated to them. My advice to anyone stuck in this, do what you're told, be a good boy or girl, and never question authority, mindset, get out of your own skin and do something crazy, because if you've been responsible all of your life, never doing anything wrong, then you are in real trouble. Remember, "Good girls go to heaven, but bad girls go everywhere." That's another meatloaf quote by the way. Aaron

I was thinking back to when I first started to read the Tao Te Ching, when I was twenty-one, and how I was so enraptured by it. I told everyone that would listen that I was a "Taoist Shaman" because I thought that was the best description I could come up with at the time. They laughed at me and thought it was really funny, so I stopped. It's funny how you can lose sight of things simply because of what other people think of them. Nowadays I would have to agree that the TTC is based on Shamanistic practices, but I also have to remember that Lao Tzu wasn't a shaman, rather he was an administrator sitting in an office. In that regard I'm with GrandmasterP, it may be partially shamanistic, but overall it's very much a political and moral treatise. Aaron

I think it's important to remember that science is, in and of itself, a philosophy of its own. That's the reason there seems to be so much "science vs." going on, because the philosophy of science is contrary to so many other philosophies. I will be the first to say that science is a good thing, but we should also not lose sight of our humanity for the sake of progress, which is something I believe many people fear. Where do we draw the line, or is there even a line that we can draw? Aaron

I really wish I saw things as clearly as you. You've got all the answers, you're able to see into people's hearts and see their motives, it's an amazing talent. Have you thought of being a criminal investigator, so you can put those skills to use catching criminals? I did rock the boat, despite what you said, I went against the status quo here. I have a clear conscience about my motives, and despite what you might believe, you wont be able to poke the bear and get me to react with vitriol and rage, rather I find you quite amusing. I think the difference between me and you is that I don't care what people think about me, so I just state things as I see them. I don't filter what I say in order to appeal to the masses, nor do I try to earn brownie points. That being said, I do try to be compassionate when I talk to others. Of course, despite this, I have very few friends on this forum now and I know that. The fact is I'm telling people they don't need any of this to find themselves. That they can do so without Buddha, without Qigong, without religion and philosophy, that all it takes is looking inside themselves. No one can help you understand who you are, except for you, it's that simple. Trying to find a greater purpose is meaningless if you don't know who is going to serve that purpose. Now I am going to look for something more meaningful to engage in, I might suggest you do the same, unless you feel the need to continue to harass me. Aaron

Now you may move this post to the pit as well and lets hope no one else decides to question anyone else's belief systems. I'm currently suffering from a cold and I don't have the energy or desire to carry on this discussion. Aaron

Why thank you. With your blessings I'm sure it will be. Namaste Aaron

Hello z00se, I'm not enjoying this, in fact I really don't have much of an emotional investment in this thread. I felt that the topic deserved to be talked about, so I posted it and posted the reasons why. I'm not an immensely negative person, although I will be the first to admit I'm not an immensely positive person either. I have a few issues that cause the hairs on the back of my neck to stand up, censorship being one of them, so when I see something like that occurring, I tend to bring it out in the open. I have no issue with a thread being removed if it violates the TOS, however if it doesn't, or if I think things are being manipulated in order to censor something, without good reason (in my opinion), then I will more often than not say something. In the past I have been critical of certain members, Sunlover/Tulku being one, but just as often those members I have been critical of have also earned my respect, Vaj being the first to come to mind. I also respect Ya Mu, believe it or not, but respect doesn't mean that I don't address a topic in order to spare his feelings. Sometimes, even when someone is acting in a compassionate way, others will still be harmed. This can't be helped, but it is important that we always do so in the most respectful method we are capable of. Also it's important to keep in mind that no one is perfect, so if someone does hurt our feelings, then we need to accept that they are human, but that doesn't mean the harm wasn't valid or real. I will try my best to address the topic without addressing Ya Mu in particular, since my desire isn't to harm him, but rather to talk about the topic at hand. I also want to commend you on your comments. You were well spoken and I think expressed yourself quite well. Aaron edit- In regards to your signature, is the second line still talking about the first, because I will have to say that if someone doesn't want to set someone on fire, they really shouldn't just do it without consideration.

Yes medicalacupuncture.org has nothing to do with alternative medicine, so of course they're going to be objective with any studies they post... that was sarcasm. I have talked to you in the past and I was led to believe that you didn't exclusively practice complimentary therapies, if that isn't so, then I apologize. This thread isn't necessarily about you either. I don't dislike you, despite what you might believe, nor would I try to "shut you down" if I had the opportunity. My reason for starting this thread up was to enable others to debate this topic if they wanted to. I understand it might make you uncomfortable or even a bit upset, if that's so I sincerely do apologize. Also I'm not asking that you stop teaching. If you're offering someone something they want, then there's no reason why you shouldn't provide it to them. I'm sure you are practicing Taoism, just as we all are practicing Taoism. The fact, though, is that we should be careful when we claim authenticity or call our practice "real" Taoism, because then you are claiming others aren't practicing "real" Taoism, which is really subjective. What you might want to say is that you practice a long and historied school of Taoism. Again, this isn't an attack, but an attempt to look at Traditional Chinese Medicine objectively, rather than subjectively. To gather objective and unbiased evidence to support or disprove TCM, to allow others the ability to freely discuss this topic. With that in mind I encourage others not to attack people for their beliefs or practices, but rather examine the practice. It's okay to bring up an example of a teacher, as I have with you, but it's not okay to make derogatory comments or baseless accusations. So again, as I've said numerous times before, I don't think you're evil, nor do I think you have nefarious intentions, in fact you seem to be a very kind fellow, if not a bit emotional at times, but then we can all be emotional, especially when we're dealing with a belief we hold dearly. I hope that if you and others from the TCM schools (as well as those who might not agree with TCM) choose to participate in this discussion we can do so with an even head, keeping to the topic, without attacking each other's characters. Did that come off as whiney? Hmm... well I hope not. Aaron

What is a whinger? If you can tell me what it is, I will see if I can stop being one. Now if you meant whiner, then you might want to ask every journalist or whistle blower who decided to stand up for what they believed in to stop whining too. If it seems like whining to you, you might want to reconsider your views on freedom of expression. Or maybe you just think the only valuable comments are those that align with your own moral and social paradigm? Aaron

Hello Apech, All I said was it wasn't any surprise the post had been sent to the pit. I think we've had these kinds of threads before regarding the validity of teachers and they haven't been sent to the pit, so it's not like every time someone says something negative about another person's school or practice that they're immediately banned. Now I know you're not a student of Ya Mu's, I had been under the impression a few other Mod's were, if that isn't true, then I retract that statement and apologize for my misinformation. If thinking that someone might react a bit more harshly to something someone said about someone who they're studying under than they would someone who they're not is imputing a motivation without proof, then of course I was imputing and should be banned for doing so. Of course I don't think it's imputing without motivation, rather it's putting two and two together. I think there are more than a few people on this site, not just me, that feel Ya Mu receives a bit of special treatment and this has been mentioned in the past as well. I wont bring up all the old threads, but I will bring to mind the lineage wars from awhile back, one that caused us to lose another valued member (at least in my opinion). Also I POINTED OUT that my post was not an attack on Ya Mu, but rather a reaction to what I view might have been a selective deletion of a thread. Again I read the redacted thread and found nothing on that thread that should have warranted it being moved to the pit. If anyone else can go there and pick out something that does, please feel free and I will recant my statement there too. We've had previous topics about other teachers that said similar things, however since they weren't practicing members, the threads weren't shut down (to the best of my knowledge). Now, if you meant to intimidate me by saying, "That includes imputing a motivation on what they do without proof or substantiation of any kind..." keep in mind I don't impute without some kind of substantiation, even if I have in the past imputed incorrectly due to a misunderstanding. Even then I apologize, accept my blame and let the drama fall where it may, which it does. The purpose of this thread isn't to discuss Ya Mu directly, but rather the practice of alternative and cooperative Traditional Chinese Medicine. I hope people can look past your post and this post and get this back on topic. If the topic includes Ya Mu, then it's only fair since he is a teacher of Traditional Taoism Medicine, which I think falls into this topic. Keep in mind that I respect you a great deal. I value your input and view you as someone who has a font of esoteric knowledge that we can all value from, so this isn't meant to be an attack on you. If you didn't intend that statement as a means of intimidation, then I apologize, but I think if you examine it in the light of how it was written, it could be taken as such. I'm done now, so I will return to the topic at hand. Aaron

Hello GrandmasterP, Sorry it took so long to reply to this post. I've had a busy week and I really didn't have the time to reply to this post, especially since I think some of the points you make deserve some serious contemplation and investigation. I was particularly fond of your recognition that the vast majority of Moralists tend to be unaware or unwilling to engage with other positions, even the ethical position. I think the majority tend to be unwilling more than unaware. Over the week I had a long discussion about the education system in America, where I mentioned to a co-worker that the vast majority of America's Education System woes, have to do with the Teacher's Unions. Simply put the unions seem to work to protect the teacher's jobs, more than they do the quality of education of our students. Case in point, in many states teachers who fail to teach their students are neither fired or relieved from duty, rather they are either taken out of the class and placed in a disciplinary class of their own, or left in the class to continue to perform inadequately, simply because the process of firing a teacher for poor performance is nearly impossible in most districts. The result is that billions of dollars each year are spent paying teachers who are either not actually in the classroom or incapable or unwilling to teach their students, rather than spent increasing the wages of qualified teachers or school materials. Even after pointing this out to my friend, who is a self-identified fundamentalist Christian, he refused to acknowledge my argument, chalked it up to propaganda and proceeded to tell me how it's the disintegration of family values that is causing much of the harm, that sex education, single parent homes, and the lack of good moral lessons is the cause of most of these problems. Even though I was able to show actual evidence, studies, documentaries, etc. he failed to accept it, because he is certain that the problems in modern society have to do with the prevalence of immorality in modern society, rather than the lack of aptitude of teachers. So in this instance we must ask ourselves, isn't it even more important for us to examine the effects of morality on cultures, even our own, as objectively as possible, if we really want to solve some of these issues that we have abstractly blamed on immorality? If we just accept that immorality is to blame, without actually investigating it, how can we ever expect to find an answer or solution, especially since the solution moralists have come up with have failed to solve many of these problems for thousands of years? I think the lesson that Lao Tzu (not the imposter, but the original) wanted us to come away with, is similar to the one that Moral Relativists are trying to impress upon us as well, that without an objective examination of why we do what we do, we can never really understand the implications or effects of our actions, nor can we ever change them. Aaron

I thank you for your advice, but I will keep his name here, since he is a proponent of alternative medical treatment and from my understanding (and in my opinion) his method is in the school of TCM (i.e. qigong, energy healing), even if he distances himself from it. Also the reason I started this thread was because Lao Tzu's thread was thrown to the pit, even though, after the editing done by the mods, I couldn't find any viable reason for it to happen. Aaron edit- Ya Mu even calls his method of treatment "Traditional Taoist Medicine and Stillness Movement Qigong", which to me (and I think the vast majority of people) is the same as Traditional Chinese Medicine. Exchanging Chinese for Taoist doesn't do much in my book.

Lao Tzu isn't Sunlover/Tulku, he's just an opinionated fellow from China, who believes that westerners are lost and need his guidance to understand what Taoism "really" is about. Harmless, if not annoying at times. Aaron