Aaron

I think you may be seeing what you want to see, rather than what is actually there. Aaron

Before we start calling each other's beliefs crazy, remember that to the vast majority or westerners, and not a few easterners, the notion of qi is quite crazy and trying to talk about it is going to get you laughed right out of the room. There's a reason qigong isn't on the top 20 best seller list, it's because it's hard to swallow most of what's being taught. Those that can let go of preconceptions they've been taught may find it possible to accept it on faith, but in doing so, they shouldn't forget how crazy it can sound to someone who hasn't. Aaron

Actually what you're quoting is a myth. If we believe that, should we also believe Buddha was born from an elephant and that Jesus walked on water? I know it's a more practical myth, but the point is that there is nothing in the writings to actually indicate he wrote it for a border guard, not one single reference, which seems quite odd when you think about it. Also I say "my opinion", but I think many people have the same opinion in regards to Buddhist compassion. I think a lot (most maybe) do not practice compassion because they are "highly evolved spiritually", but rather because they are following the dogma of their religious teachings. I'm actually going to be starting a topic with that theme soon, just want to collect my thoughts first. Aaron

I disagree on a few of your responses, but it would just be quibbling to respond to them, but I did want to respond to your confusion regarding #4. In the Taoist view compassion is not practiced for ulterior motives, but rather as a natural occurrence of Te. The Taoist who is practicing compassion, without the constraints of virtue, morality, or ideology, is doing so because it is a perfectly natural response to what he experiences in the world. His self sacrifice, does not arise out of desire or non-desire, but out of an intuitive response to his environment. In my view many Buddhists practice compassion, not in response to their awareness of their environment, so much as it being a proscription of belief. Taoists might view this as a virtuous act, rather than Te. Aaron edit- Also, when I refer to common man, I mean someone who is not of upper class standing, so in that sense the vast majority of the Buddhist texts were geared to the layman practitioner, rather than rulers and nobles.

I think Nirvana is more geared for the adolescent mind than the mature mind. Most of the people that listen to the albums are still young and have that "us against the world" mentality. I think for certain people it serves it's purpose, just like death metal and the blues, it helps us to get in touch with a darker place within and release those feelings, rather than allow them to fester. In that sense I can see how the music is healthy. I loved going to a show and just letting go, jumping, shouting, dancing, hooking up, etc. It was free and something that I don't regret experiencing. I will quote Meat Loaf now, "A wasted youth is better by far, than a wise and productive old age." Aaron

I didn't think that you were. No worries. Aaron

Honestly, very few people understand the difference between Buddhism and Taoism. The fact is a lot of Buddhist philosophy found its way into Taoism due to the pressures put on Taoists monasteries and temples to conform to what was thought to be proper monastic behavior by the rulers at the time. If you want to examine the actual differences, here are the ones I've found- 1) Buddhists preach detachment from the world, Taoists teach that one must become more attached to the world. 2) Buddhist believe that suffering is universal and that one must be from attachments to be free of suffering, Taoists teach that one must live in harmony in the world around them, not by detaching, but by diminishing their desires and learning to accept what they need and recognize what they want. 3) Buddhist believe that one can eventually overcome suffering through enlightenment and be free from the cycle of rebirth, Taoists do not believe in rebirth and believed that people should aspire to understanding the mysteries of Tao so that they can return to the Tao upon death. Note- later on reincarnation did find its way into Taoism, but there is no evidence that it was present prior to Buddhism's spread to China. (My own view is that we are never separate from the Tao, so there is no need to return, but that's beside the facts.) 4) Buddhists believe that compassion is instrumental in removing the suffering from one's own life and the lives of others, Taoists believe that compassion is an act of Te and that when it is done honestly, without selfish motives, is the highest exp<b></b>ression of Virtue. In other words, only he is who is willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of the world, is worthy of caring for it. 5) Most Buddhists texts were written for the common man, the Tao Te Ching was written for rulers and not intended for the common man. Most likely Lao Tzu believed most men were incapable of following his teachings and only those of noble blood, educated, and who commanded a degree of political power could put them into practice in a way that could change the world on a large scale. Anyways, that's all I got now, but I think it is representative of the major differences. Aaron

Howdy... I'm assuming the negative comments that followed were directed at me, fair enough. I really could care less whether you believe me or not, but it all happened. He was a jerk, this topic is kind of silly, that's the gist of it. Kurt was a guy who lived a very tragic life. Not a lot of people who knew him liked him. He was hard to get along with and he brought a lot of the grief he suffered on himself. I feel bad for him, but that came when I went through recovery and looked back on it and saw it for what it was. His music did touch on a nerve, and I disagree with MrTiger, it was timeless. There aren't many bands that still have their music played 20 years after it came out. The only reason I spent so much time typing it was because it brought back a lot of bad memories from that period, things I haven't though about for awhile. It took me years to stop blaming that town for my problems and to start facing them myself. Sadly, for many in Aberdeen, Nirvana is all they have. (I think one of the members from Metal Church came from there, but who remembers them?) On a side note, Mike Burgess, the guy who won the private concert with Metallica on MTV was a friend of mine as well. (Side note, Mike could've let as many people as he wanted into the concert, but didn't which left him with a few less friends in the end, including me.) Aaron

Shortly after my eighteenth birthday my father got a call from my mother asking for help. He left me and my brother and flew out to Washington to see her. At the time she was living in Hoquiam, the neighboring city to Aberdeen. He called a few days after he left to tell me and my brother that he wasn't coming back, that we shouldn't follow him, and that we needed to remember to pay the rent. At the time I still loved my mother and father, blinded and still young, I didn't realize how harmful they actually were, so despite my father's request my brother and I saved up money and left two weeks later on a plane to Seattle, WA. I had called my parents and let them know when the plane was arriving, but no one showed up at the airport to meet us. We were stranded there with our luggage, without a clue as to how to get to Aberdeen, WA. Luckily we met a young guy who told us to we could take the Greyhound to Olympia, then catch the Grays Harbor Transit bus to the downtown station in Aberdeen. We followed his directions and caught the next Greyhound south and arrived in Olympia that night, missing the last bus to Aberdeen by fifteen minutes. I remember that night because it was September and the temperature dropped down to the high forties. I had just come to Washington from Florida, so I had no coats or sweaters, just t-shirts. I was shivering and cold, sitting huddled outside the bus station. A homeless guy stopped and ruffled through his backpack and pulled out an old blue hooded sweatshirt with "Alaska" printed on the back and the big dipper printed on the front. I put it on and thanked him. He sat and talked with us, told us to stay at the bus station because the police patrolled there and not to go across the street to the park, because the guys there were very territorial and wouldn't take kindly to anyone coming in there while they were sleeping. I remember trying to sleep that night, but even with the sweater it was too cold and I couldn't stop shaking. The night seemed to drag on forever. At one point I hid by bags behind a dumpster and headed out to a grocery store down the street. There was a cashier and a stock boy there and they let me and my brother sit on the bench wait there and get warm. In the morning we went back to the greyhound station and retrieved our luggage. Around eight the transit bus to Aberdeen arrived and we boarded it. The bus driver's name was Beverly and she seemed a bit concerned, asked us where we were going and we told her our predicament. Low and behold she actually was friend's with my mother. When we had finally made the two hour trip and arrived at the bus station she told us to wait and she went in and called my mom to let her know we were there. My mother came on the next bus and led us to where my father was staying, a little two room apartment just a block from the station. The place was a drug den to be exact. It rented rooms out. Most of the tenants were either on welfare or drug addicts looking for a cheap place to stay. (Unknown to me, Aberdeen had the highest rate of alcoholism and drug addiction of any town in the country at that time.) My father opened the door and I remember that I was so excited to see him, but he seemed disappointed that we were there. He let us in and for the next few months that was my home. It was in that little disheveled hovel on Wishkah Street that I first met Kurt Cobain. It was about two weeks after I arrived that my sister brought him over with a few of her friends. He was only there for about ten minutes, but it was long enough for me to realize he was an asshole. Now the reason I say this is because he made fun of my father, who was sixty or so at the time. My sister told him to quit and he did, but I realized right away that I didn't like the guy. The next time I saw him I was living in a small three bedroom apartment off B Street. I had made some friends who were staying with us. They were street kids we had met. All of them homeless. My father, for all his faults, was a good man at heart and rather then kick them out on the streets, he let them stay with us. They loved my father, thought the world of him. There was also an alcoholic Quinalt Indian woman with two boys and another woman with two boys as well staying there. None of the people staying there seemed to care that my father gave the teenage girls that came over drugs in exchange for sex, nor did they care that he drank too much and shoplifted food. I remember my brother had a crush on one of the girls, her name was Melony. He walked in on them, she was reclining against the headboard of the bed in just a t-shirt and panties, my father was sitting off the side smoking a joint, passing it to her. It devastated my brother. It was in that house that I began to know Kurt Cobaine. See he was homeless at the time and spent a few nights on our living room floor. He was still friends with my sister, in fact it was his circle of friends that turned her on to shooting up. I remember walking into the kitchen watching them heat up some white powder in a spoon, the needle sitting on the counter. They told me that I either had to take a hit or get out. I got out. After that Kurt was an asshole towards me. I didn't do drugs, I was trying to be a christian, and really despised the world I was living in. Kurt had a barbed wit, he took to calling me "Jesus Freak". I really despised him, to the point that when he came over I avoided him. Finally, one night, when the kids that had been staying with us had raided the fridge and drank all my father's beer, I told my father it was Kurt who had stolen it and he banned him from the house. That was the end of Kurt in my life. In the years that followed I didn't think much about him until I heard a song on the radio ("Smells Like Teen Spirit") and i was told that it was Kurt singing. I didn't care. I didn't like Kurt and I was a bit upset that someone like him could become famous, when in my mind he certainly didn't deserve it. We all know what happened to Kurt. I remember the night I heard he died. I was a bit shocked, but at the same time relieved, don't ask me why. Maybe I felt he had gotten what he deserved, at least in my own early twenties, mildly twisted sense of justice. Ironically, by then I had started drinking alcoholically, done nearly every drug available, and pretty much become a twisted self-absorbed twit myself. Years later I look back and realize that Kurt was a product of his environment. My mother was roommates with Kurt's mom for a few years. I had visited her a few times and I remember looking at pictures of Kurt as a boy. He was a cute kid and I wondered what happened to him. I know he hated the world and that he was certain that the world hated him, but I wonder if that was true. I don't hate him now, nor do I regret hating him in the past, instead I see, from experience, where he came from and how it changes you. I became an alcoholic and drug addict in the same places Kurt did. From what I hear he started getting heavy into it in his early twenties, the same age I did. I'm sure if I had walked into my house and saw me that i would've picked on me too. I see how that filthy little town seemed to corrupt everything around it. Melony, the girl who slept with my father and without even knowing it, betrayed my brother, died of an OD. They found her dumped in an alley in LA. My best friends from that house are either dead or in prison now. Everything about that place was dark and destined for failure. It doesn't surprise me that Kurt didn't escape. I spent ten years there and tried to commit suicide twice and ended up the hospital three time with alcohol poisoning, Kurt spent his whole life there. Anyways, I caution people not to idolize Kurt too much. He wasn't special, he was just lucky. He happened to touch on the one thing that the kids in Washington state were feeling at that time, angry and alone. I guess I should feel lucky that I got to experience ground zero of the grunge life, but I can't help but wonder how different my life would've been if I had listened to my father and not followed him out to that town. Anyways, long post, I know, but just a tidbit of my own experience. I wanted to make sure people knew the reality vs. the dream. Aaron

I previously posted this in my personal practice section, but only received thirteen views, which led me to the conclusion that not a lot of people actually view the personal practice section. With that said I'm re-posting it here. Not really looking for critiques... if you do it differently great, just posting my own experience and success using this method of meditation.

Hello TI, Perhaps I should explain the reason why I advocate concentrating on your breath, it's simply because focusing on one thing helps you to remove the distraction of the mind and all it's thoughts. Breathing is an automated process, but oftentimes we will get excited and breath quickly, which can cause us to get anxious or agitated, by slowing down the breathing at the beginning of meditation, we allow ourselves to enter the state calmly. As you find that you are able to pay attention to your breathing and that you have let everything else go, you let your awareness of your breathing go as well, in other words you no longer try to control it. What I find is that when people get to this point their breathing remains slow and even and they continue to take full breaths without even realizing it. They have essentially returned to their natural breathing. I think "one breath" is different from what I advocate, but the goal may be similar, in that I believe that breathing is our primary connection to what we see and don't see around us. It allows the sensations that exists within the world to come inside of us and for us to remove the negative sensations that exists within as well. Full breaths within a calm and serene location tend to fill us with the calm and serene sensations that surrounds us, without us even knowing. In my practice I often use breathing during meditation (which is different from what I am explaining here) to help me control pain, heal the body, and experience what can't be seen or felt. Using your breath during meditation requires one to focus on their breath and to consciously focus the body's natural abilities to heal, but it is not as beneficial (in my experience) as empty mind meditation when it comes to gaining a greater awareness of who we are. Keep in mind that in my own experience the body and mind are not separate, but the same thing, so when one becomes aware of this fully, not just philosophically, but experientially, they can begin to sense their body's needs more acutely. When it comes to road maps, I ask the question, why does one need a map, when they are where they should be already? One needs not seek outside of one's self, when it is within. This is the first and most basic teaching of Empty Mind meditation. Aaron edit- Keep in mind that knowledge is the great offender in regards to Empty Mind Meditation. If one enters meditation with a preconceived notion of what they will experience, then they will, more often than not, experience it. That's why it's essential, in my opinion, to be free of all of our preconceived notions. It is only when we can do this, when we can allow what is us to arise and then let go of it, that we can see the reality of who we are without being tainted by morality, religiosity, and philosophy. Who we are lies, not with words and thoughts, but within us. It is only when we can let go of how we've been taught to view ourselves, that we can begin to see who we really are. Even then we may find that the "I" that we believe existed, doesn't exist at all, but the real "I" is something more than what we could've ever imagined.

Just let that happen on its own accord no need to rush into anything. Aaron

I would have to agree with the idea that recognizing one's wishes is instrumental for understanding one's self. Also remember you can't ever be free from desires, desires are normal and necessary in order for us to survive in this world. Our goal should be to diminish desires and most people misunderstand what's being said here. It's not about diminishing your desire to eat so that you are no longer hungry, but rather that you diminish those desires that distract you and cause you to be out of sync with the world around you. Even then those desires will remain (one reason I have such a problem believing the whole idea that one can rid themselves of attachments). In the end understanding what one wants in life is really the key to understanding what's motivating them, but even more important is understanding the root of those wants, knowing from whence they came. If you can do this, then having desires is not so much of a problem, because you'll understand intuitively which ones are based on a need and which ones are based on wants. Aaron

Oh... why did you have to go there. This is another pet peeve of mine, because I know people who've used these methods without supervision that have caused permanent physical damage to themselves. Any pressure on the perineum and urethra can cause damage. I have a friend who's had two surgeries as a result of applying pressure to perineum in order to delay or prevent orgasm. He will have to undergo another surgery, but is putting it off because the doctor said it only has a 50% chance of removing the scar tissue that occurred. These methods are meant for people at the very end of their qigong practice and the people who were practicing them in China were instructed in person by their teachers. It's not meant to be learned in a book. If you read the books, they have a disclaimer, but very few people take it seriously. Again, if you're trying to delay the natural occurrence of something there is going to be damage eventually. The build up of energy during ejaculation isn't meant to be retained in my opinion, but rather released to a partner. If you're sole purpose for abstaining from sex and retaining semen is to increase your own power, you've missed some of the very basic teachings of Taoism, and obviously have not attained the wisdom necessary to truly gain the benefits from this kind of practice. My recommendation, abstinence is by far less dangerous than perineum pressure and PC muscle control exercises (which have been anecdotally linked to permanent erectile dysfunction). Aaron

I disagree with several of the things you say, the most prominent having to do with freeing ourselves from pleasure. The Tao Te Ching tells us to diminish our desires, not be free of them, for the simple fact that we can never be free of them. I think that you're mixing Buddhism with Taoism here and it's not your fault, much of Buddhist philosophy has been superimposed upon Taoism and most of us aren't even aware of it. So this is a very simple question, if we know that diminishing our desires helps us to lead more normal lives, simply by leaving us with fewer distractions, then why isn't it simpler when a young man (or any man for that matter) is aroused to masturbate, rather than abstain and allow his arousal to increase, causing him anxiety and frustration? Also the evidence is anecdotal, just like there was plenty anecdotal evidence to support that caffeine was causing high blood pressure, it seemed to make sense since it was a stimulant, however recent research has shown that it may actually do the opposite. Now many people who have researched ED believe that it has an emotional component to it, so when someone comes in complaining about it to their therapist, one would suppose that the therapist would try to help the patient find out if there is a psychosomatic component to it, but in our modern society we choose to prescribe viagra instead or testosterone replacement therapy. Keep in mind that both of these drugs are making the drug companies millions and they're more than happy to provide the "evidence" that they need to continue making money. The point I'm making is that what we perceive to be natural may not be, that how we have been taught to view things may very well be the cause of our problems. The world today is no more "deviant" than it was 2,000 years ago, the only difference is the medium we express those "deviancies" in. The greeks had pottery, the romans had bath house walls, modern man has video, and we've all had pen and paper. The truth of the matter is that man has been saying "the world is getting worse" for centuries, without realizing that very little has changed. My final point is that a man who is practicing Te as it's proscribed within the Tao Te Ching would not try to control his desires, but rather he would try to do what allowed him to interact with others in a harmonious way. In China, prior to the rise of Buddhism, Taoists advocated having sex often, in various ways, with as many partners as they found willing. They believed sex increased energy levels, not diminished them. It seems strange to me that it was only after Buddhist morality infiltrated Taoism that we began to view it as being "icky", unhealthy, and something that needed to diminished in order to achieve oneness with Tao. I don't think Lao Tzu would've advocated abstinence, and since Chuang Tzu was married and had children, I'm going to assume neither would he, but apparently somewhere down the line, someone decided that it was in the best interest of Taoism to do just this. I point my finger at morality as the cause, so does the Tao Te Ching. I can choose to follow what Lao Tzu, the father of Taoism taught, or I can choose to follow a relatively small number of qigong practitioners have decided was the "moral" and healthy alternative, even though it seems to cause so many people to struggle and suffer. You know what pisses me off is that when one of these young men comes on this website and complains about guilt or inability to remain celibate, we don't say, "hey if it's causing you that much stress, maybe it's not for you right now." No, what we do is begin to tell them all the benefits that it causes, how we've been able to do it, and that they shouldn't give up, planting within them those seeds of doubt that perpetuate the guilt and self loathing they already feel. Again, there is no proven evidence to support that masturbation has negative effects on anyone, yet we've believed for so long it does, maybe we're looking for even the smallest glimmer of evidence to support that it does, in the hopes of proving that we haven't been misled to and lied to by our parents and religious leaders. In the end nothing in this thread has changed my mind about masturbation. I have my opinion and I'll keep sharing it for as long as other people keep sharing their belief that it's harmful and sinful. Aaron

My main argument is that there is no evidence to support that masturbation is harmful to you physically. None that I have ever found. A reduce in testosterone levels isn't indicative of harm, nor has there been any link to excessive masturbation and lowered testosterone. Some doctors believe the reduction in testosterone we see in certain individuals may be caused by the environment, specifically the hormones found in meats that have been injected with steroids. The fact is testosterone hormonal treatment itself is controversial, not everyone agreeing that it's needed or necessary. With that said, if someone comes on and simply says, "I want to practice semen retention in order to further my practice" you will not see me reply to that, rather I reply to the numerous young people that come afterwards with their cries of shame over having committed the harmless act of masturbation. I personally don't believe pornography is beneficial, in fact it is harmful to both the actors involved and the people that can become addicted to it. However I had one person who was beating themselves up over watching a hentai film and I had to ask him, "why?" This is the problem we face in modern society, we are still very much driven by the remains of the old moral standards upon which our society was founded. We can say that we are more open minded, but then you have to remember that in most western societies a high percentage of people still practice Christian values, just as in eastern societies they practice Buddhist values (among other religions). Both of these religions prohibit masturbation, which means most parents discourage their children from masturbating, resulting in a negative image of their own genitalia. They view their sexual organs as dirty and using it, other than the proscribed and religiously and morally correct way brings a bout of shame. That's my problem, their should be no guilt associated with sex at all, nor should we try to control how others use their own body's, even if they want to use them too much. It's their decision and in my understanding of the Tao Teh Ching, it's the Taoist way to approach this. When people can start a conversation about this topic by stating "there is no scientific evidence to support that ejaculation causes harm to people, however some sects of qigong believe otherwise" I can stay silent, because no one is being misled. Anyways, my overall view is that the Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu had no opinion in this regard and probably would've laughed if someone had made the suggestion that normal sexual behavior was harmful. Again, every monkey on the planet would probably be considered a compulsive masturbater, but for some reason we are different. It's society's inability to understand Te and it's relationship to Tao that causes us to think this way. Aaron

Scotty, talking to you is like having to get your tooth pulled. First, you're speculating again. Second, in another thread someone else brought up the point that most of the studies on masturbation have been funded by groups trying to prove it is negative. Again, using speculation as fact is just dishonest. By the way, check out the wikipedia site if you want to learn more about masturbation and the health benefits. As far as this conversation goes, I'll talk to other people about this topic, but you're just too unreasonable. Aaron

Okay... since you want me to prove that you're spouting BS, I will simply quote the abstracts myself... here's the first study's abstract... Anyone that reads this can clearly see that the rise in testosterone occurs when one ejaculates after abstaining for seven days. An increase of 145.7% seems very high. That's 1 and half times the norm. Although no prolonged studies have been done, it seems that the body, after seven days may be making up for a lack of sexual activity. That's a layman's opinion, but it would seem plausible, since we are designed to procreate, not abstain from procreation. You have yet to prove any harmful effects from normal masturbation and in fact there is little to no evidence that compulsive masturbation causes any long term effects either, hence there is no plausible reason one should abstain from masturbation to any degree. Some doctors recommend that you restrict masturbation to 3 time a week, but there is no evidence to support that this is necessary or required. The studies that have been done regarding masturbation have been heavily funded by religious and moral authorities who are trying to support their arguments again pornography and the moral decline of society. The irony is that you've taken the argument there as well. I say the moral decline in society occurred when we villianized normal sexual behaviors in an attempt to control how people express themselves sexually. Blame the priests, monks, and masters for this, not science. I was actually emailed by someone who claimed I was sexually obsessed because I take this topic so seriously, but that's not it at all. I see the harm this does to young people all to often on this site and it pisses me off to no ends. Who the hell has the right to dictate how another person should behave? Who has the right to tell them that they're killing themselves because they're wasting a source of energy that can't be measured by any means other than through one's own metaphysical perception. The same people that laugh at the new agers and berate them for their deluded beliefs, scoff at UFOs, are brazen enough to claim Qi is an actual energy source, when there is no proof that it actually exists. All and all this is leaving me with a bad impression of qigong. Aaron

Okay, first off I'm talking about normal masturbation, which I think can be considered 1-7 times a week. There is no evidence to support normal masturbation causes any kind of decrease in testosterone from any study I've seen. I do notice that a lot of the emotional trauma that comes from masturbation has to do with people saying it's bad and that people need to abstain in order to live holy/spiritual/qi-building lives. There is no scientific evidence yet been posted to support any of this. My argument still stands, abstinence has no noticeable beneficial effects, scientifically speaking, nor is there any evidence that it increases one's spiritual worth. If you weren't supposed to masturbate then we wouldn't be able to, it's that simple. So from a Taoist perspective, the act is natural and every bit a part of Tao. Unless, of course, you're saying monkeys aren't a part of Tao? Why are we expected to live to a different standard than monkeys? Hmm... could it be because society has dictated it? What does the Tao Te Ching say about that? If you don't know I'll quote it later. Aaron

Umm... what are you talking about? I actually went back and reread the studies abstracts again, then went online and examined the effects of high testosterone levels and it's exactly as I said in my first post. I don't know what you're talking about, or if this is your clever way of trying to redirect the focus, regardless, the facts don't change just because you've said they do. High Testosterone = Bad... Masturbation is a natural way to regulate testosterone levels. That's the simple answer. Aaron

Actually it's the opposite and that's what you're missing out on... high levels of testosterone are unhealthy, lowered levels of testosterone are healthy. I can't find any studies that state frequent masturbation causes health issues. You've already supported my argument with the two studies you've provided, so I wont bother looking up other studies just yet. Aaron

My major argument is that religion uses sex as a means to gain control over their members and that religious Taoism and qigong is not so different. I'm encouraging people to trust facts, rather than evidence that can't be supported. Also I'm encouraging them to question how they are being taught. If someone says "do this until this happens, if you can't then you are unready/stupid/sinful/incompetent" then that is using negative reinforcement to ensure that you come to the conclusion they want you to. Aaron

Okay, first read your studies. The second one you listed only proves that abstaining from sex increases "blood pressure, heart rate, plasma catecholamines and prolactin" before and after ejaculation... hence abstaining is unhealthy, which means regular masturbation would be healthy. The first study proved that abstinence increased testosterone level, which results in all the things stated above, as well as depression, mood swings, anxiety, etc. What are you trying to point out here, because I'm missing it. These studies only support what I've already said. Aaron

I have no problem with you saying this, my problem is when people state as a fact that masturbation is unhealthy, sinful, etc. when there is no basis to prove it. Aaron

I have no problem with you saying this, my problem is when people state as a fact that masturbation is unhealthy, sinful, etc. when there is no basis to prove it. Also keep in mind that different sects of Taoism practice different things. There are certain schools that advocate sex. Historically speaking they were the dominant schools until the rise of Buddhism and Confucianism, then abstinence began to gain sway. Aaron