Aaron

Give me some time and I'll list some sources to counter your "argument"... oh wait, my argument was that abstinence did cause an increase in testosterone... so thanks for proving my point. I guess I wont have to look up evidence if you keep giving it to me. Also I don't remember seeing any studies that prove that normal masturbation causes one to become weakened. If that is so, I pray for the monkeys because they definitely masturbate more than what we would consider "normal"... poor, poor monkeys. Aaron

I think you have a misunderstanding regarding Taoism. This problem arises when we confuse Buddhism and Taoism. Taoism does not teach the eradication of attachments, but diminishing desires. Diminishing is the key word here. Compassion is a key element in Taoism and one of the three jewels, as is appreciation. The Tao Teh Ching speaks repeatedly about understanding the differences between needs and wants and being satisfied with (or appreciating) what you need. I will agree that when one is expressing love, joy, and appreciation, more often than not, they are exhibiting wisdom. Aaron

Chinese and Indians weren't celibate, they used birth control. There is a big difference. The Chinese people didn't stop having sex just because they could only have one child, nor did they stop masturbating. If celibacy was the cure, why do you think they spent billions upon billions of dollars educating their citizens on methods of birth control, when all they had to say was stop having sex? Aaron

The impulse to masturbate is normal and a result of increased testosterone in the blood. The desire to masturbate is not an addiction, it's an impulse we have that is a part of the natural process of being human. Monkeys masturbate quite frequently with no negative side effects. Apparently they don't need to abstain, but for some reason humans do? Quite peculiar. I am not so weak minded or superstitious that just because someone says I'm addicted I'll believe them, nor am I so uneducated regarding the facts, that I'll discount everything and just accept it based on someone else's testimony, especially if that testimony has no actual basis, other than anecdotal evidence. I have abstained from sex for long periods of time, especially when I was in the Christian religion. I have even abstained as a result of my Taoist practices. I have yet to sense anything you've stated, and it's not because I lack sensitivity, but because I understand the power of suggestion and refuse to let it influence my observations. I am here to tell everyone that I masturbate frequently, that it definitely reduces stress in my life, that it has had no negative side effects on my physical, mental, or spiritual health. So if I call you on this BS, it's because I know from personal experience that it is BS, of course you'll just say that's my own anecdotal evidence, so don't take my word for it, take the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the various other medical associations around the world and the million or so doctors that say otherwise, or is that not enough evidence to counter the few thousand or so qigong masters that have claimed otherwise? Aaron

Well first of all, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, which means it has not been proven factually. Second you're proving my point when you say "Try this...ejaculate 3 times a day and see how you feel...then wait a week and see how you feel. There is an actual difference between the two. If you can't feel a difference, you need to develop some sensitivity...or honesty." What you're doing is leading me to a conclusion and telling me that if I fail to come to that conclusion then I have failed or lack the ability to understand, or in this case, I'm lying to myself. Compulsive masturbation can be a problem, but there are many young men that masturbate 2-3 times a day with NO negative effects. The negative effects I see repeatedly recounted on this forum, don't stem from an actual physical side effect of masturbation, but from brainwashing. They already have a negative view of masturbation that was forced upon them by moral and religious dogma, that combined with phrases like "pay attention and you'll see" which inevitably leads them to see what they're paying attention to, results in them actually manifesting a psychosomatic physical ailment. It astounds me how many people who come here saying they're "suffering" yet they go to a doctor and the doctor can't find anything wrong with them. I see the pattern, but you apparently have been blinded by your faith and are unable to see beyond that. Oh and I did ejaculate 3 or more times a day when I was younger and I can't say I had any negative physical side effects. I was an excellent athlete, even earning a scholarship for basketball at that time. I masturbate frequently and I have no qualms about it, nor do I feel tired or weak because of it. In fact I am quite healthy for my age. Most people think I'm younger than I actually am, so if all this masturbation is killing me slowly, well at least I'll enter the grave looking and feeling younger than I am. I've met a few mystics in my time and I've been told over and over that I have an abundance of energy, but I don't think it's because I actually have energy, but because I am confident, compassionate, and understanding. I try very hard to put others first and minimize my effect on others. What they mistakenly believe is that this is a result of energy practice, when in fact it's the result of over twenty years of meditation and profound realizations about my place within this world. I'm not going to stop arguing against abstinence, because I think it's unhealthy, spiritually and emotionally. I have abstained in the past and I can abstain when I need to, but I don't feel I NEED too. I don't feel there is sufficient evidence to warrant it, and in fact I think the evidence is to the contrary. The funny thing is that no one has yet to provide any factual scientific evidence to support that masturbation is unhealthy, all I hear is "masturbation makes angels cry" and "masturbation makes you lose precious jing". Well tell me where has science even identified that jing actually exists? You know what the major complaint of doctors in China is? The sheer number of people that die because they don't seek medical treatment from an actual doctor, but rather seek out folk treatments instead. It's this reliance on myth that's killing people and diminishing the spirit. Facts and faith are what this comes down to. You're stating faith as if it's a fact, but it isn't, especially not just because you say it's is. Aaron edit- And I would bow out of this argument, because you'll lose. I can start digging up research and links to research that proves what I'm saying, but all you'll be able to find is a few "Masters" that have claims that can't be substantiated as real under close scrutiny.

Hello Tibetan Ice, I'm more than happy to answer your questions regarding Taoist Empty Mind Meditation. Again this is from my own experience and it may not necessarily be from the Taoist canon. What are the benefits? Well I think first and foremost you begin to understand who and what you actually are on a deeper level. I hesitate to explain this too deeply, because I don't want to influence someone's experience meditating. Meditation in my opinion should be about personal exploration, so rather than explain what to expect, I would rather have someone experience something then, if they have questions, give my opinion about the experience. What is Taoist Emptiness? Emptiness in the Taoist sense is tricky to define. You hear people use words like silence, void, space between heaven and earth, etc. but really unless one experiences it for themselves, no description or definition can suffice. Again, although in the past I have tried to describe this experience, I have recently come to the realization that it's impossible to do so, so instead of describing it, I aspire to help others experience it through their own meditative practice. In this way I can be sure that it is a genuine experience for them and not something subconsciously guided by my own beliefs. What experiences do you have while practicing Taoist Empty Mind Meditation? As I stated before you experience many emotions and sensations during meditation, including bliss, sadness, joy, grief, astonishment, boredom, etc. The difference is that you can become more acutely aware of these emotions. Also meditation increases your awareness of self. The more one practices the greater this awareness becomes. In the end the destination is dependent on the person, which is one reason I do not want to tell someone what to expect in this regard, I'd rather it be an authentic experience of awakening for them. With that said, I have experienced Emptiness. It hasn't made me supernatural, nor do I have any powers. If I practice on a regular basis and meditate, I find that I am much more in tune with the world around me. For lack of a better way to describe it, I surrender to the world around me, rather than expect the world to surrender to me. In regards to True Emptiness, I will only say, what is true and false? Are they not the same thing? To one something is true, to another false. Is it not better to examine what something is, to experience it as it is, rather than to define it's value based on belief? I hope this helps. Aaron

Can you provide a historical basis for the celibacy in China and India? I've yet to find anything to support that it was done for any other reason than religious observation. Aaron

This is religion ensuring its survival by controlling its followers actions. In the old days the Catholic Church had a ton of myths about sex and masturbation that people believed were true and on occasion the symptoms they advocated actually did occur, but there was no actual scientific evidence to correlate anything between the two. In the same way there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE, other than anecdotal, to prove that masturbation reduces jing/qi/energy. Of course if you believe it to be true, then there is a good chance your brain will convince you it is. Think of all the people cured by water that has absolutely no curing processes... the mind over body at work. The same goes for someone who is told they will be weakened when they masturbate or gain more energy. Again no evidence, just myth and religion working hard to keep itself alive. Aaron

I really can't believe the number of people that have issues with masturbation. It seems like people will believe anything they're told, without any verifiable evidence to support it. The scientific community has agreed for numerous decades now that masturbation is NATURAL and normal, however religious groups still try to impose this idea that it is sinful and unhealthy. Kate made an interesting observation in another thread regarding how our identity is linked to our sexual organs, that it essentially dictates who we are and how we behave, not just sexually, but also interpersonally. I believe that religions realized this long ago and understood that the only way to ensure that their members remained faithful was to remove it from the equation, hence the taboos on sex, including masturbation. The more sexually free someone is, the less likely they are to be influenced by outside sources, especially in regards to their self-identity. Take for example the obsession people have on this board regarding the effects of masturbation on their qigong practice. Ask yourself some simple questions and come to your own conclusion... If masturbation is unnatural, why are we essentially programmed to perform the act? Nearly everyone has performed the act before they leave puberty, most as they enter. If it was really that harmful, why would it be so prevalent? Why do religions tend to villianize the act, claiming it has negative effects on people, physically and spiritually? In nearly every study I've seen abstinence from masturbation actually increases the levels of testosterone in males, which may account for why nearly every male engages in the act... increases in testosterone can lead to anxiety, depression, mood swings, aggression, and increased sexual arousal. The act of masturbation actually helps to decrease these impulses and allow for a more balanced interpersonal relationship with others, in other words it actually does have a calming effect. If we know scientifically that the act of masturbation is beneficial, the only reason religions would have to perpetuate this negative image is to control the people who engage in the act through coercion, absolution of sin comes to mind. If the only way to be absolved from this sin is to engage in religious acts, it makes it an almost certainty that those people committing the sin will keep coming back. Think about the next time you're told to perform five "Hail Mary's" and six "Our Fathers" or that the only way to prevent a loss of qi is through abstinence. Why would religious institutions almost universally encourage abstinence in their clergy? The desire to have sex is one of our strongest impulses, in fact it is the primary reason we develop interpersonal relationships with others. If one wants to ensure that their clergy will be loyal to their religious institution they must first eliminate this obstacle. A ban on sex is the easiest solution because it prevents the clergy from developing relationships and having families. A clergyman (or woman) with a family has to divide their loyalty between the institution and their family, and unlike Abraham, the vast majority aren't willing to sacrifice their wife or children for God, Buddha, or the Celestial Court. So, I could go on, but I'm repeating myself and it really does get tiresome. The fact of the matter is that anyone who has studied sociology and understands the dynamics of society understands that the reason for such strict ideology and prohibitions against sexual deviations, is to ensure a strict control of the behavior of that society. The more control exerted on their sexual activity, the more control they have on the individual. There is a reason why homosexuality is rampant in monasteries, just as their is a reason why nearly every male on the face of the earth engages in masturbation, despite the moral reprehension, engaging in masturbation and sexual intercourse it is a natural impulse that is difficult to defy, think of it in the terms of telling your body not to eat when it's hungry or not talking to someone else when you're lonely. The funny thing to me is that with the scientific evidence provided one would assume that masturbation would also be beneficial spiritually, however centuries of stigmatization has led to a perception that giving in to a natural urge is a sign of weakness and sin. It's sort of like the impulse to kill a cockroach when we see it. Yes in large numbers they can be unhealthy, but they actually have a place in the natural order, digesting things other creatures wont. The notion to kill them comes from the social construct we've been taught, that they are filthy creatures. Ask any entomologist about a cockroach and they will go on and on about how marvelous and wonderful these insects actually are. So if they are so wonderful and marvelous to the educated person, why do so many of us continue to revile them? Because we still believe what we are told. STOP LETTING RELIGION DICTATE THE TRUTH AND START FIGURING IT OUT FOR YOURSELF. I thought that deserved caps because so many people seem to be incapable of doing this. Will you be blind, allowing someone to tell you what the world looks like, or will you see it for yourself? It's your decision, but hopefully, before someone else starts a rant or thread about masturbation they'll read this first and at least get the inkling to think about this topic for themselves. Trust facts, not faith. Aaron

Well it's nice to know that you're right and everybody else is wrong, that really makes things so much easier doesn't it? Should we start calling you Master Deci Belle or is Deci Belle still fine? Aaron

my recommendation, drop the books and just spend time focusing on meditation and introspection. the important thing is to focus on your own practice and not so much other schools of thought. I hope you get a lot out of it and I'll be looking forward to hearing about your experience when you get back.

I don't think anyone is telling him to stay, just pointing out how his actions show he's still got much to learn about Tao. In fact I will quote one of my favorite Taoist sayings right now, "Don't go away mad, just go away." There is that better? Aaron

The Tao that can be spoken of is not the eternal Tao, so how can you determine whether or not somebody actually knows anything about the Tao? My point is that you're placing your own expectations about Taoism on others, when you should be focusing on your own practice rather than how other people are practicing. When you begin to compare your own practice the others you are competing. One of the three jewels states that we should not be in competition with others, so by stating that you are leaving because other people are not practicing Taoism, you are showing your own ignorance. I would recommend reading the Tao Te Ching again and paying attention to the sections about virtue. I would be happy to help you out in this regard if, if you want. Aaron

So yesterday, for the first time in over eight years, I hit someone. The story goes like this, at the job I've been working at, there is a young man who has some martial arts training that constantly wants to fool around by hitting me or putting me in wrist locks, etc. I told him I boxed for awhile back in the day and apparently he wants to prove that martial arts is superior to boxing by trying to provoke a reaction. Yesterday he kept punching me and I finally told him that he better stop or I'd hit him back. My comment must have pissed him off, because he hit me on the forearm as hard as he could and left a huge bruise, about 2 inches round, I reacted by punching him in the face and laying him out flat on the ground. I'm not telling you this to present myself as a bad ass, because I'm not a bad ass. I have no martial arts training at all, again I boxed for about a year when I was younger, but otherwise nothing. I guess why I'm telling you this is that I realized that I am capable of violence, even though I thought I had passed beyond that need. My response wasn't so much out of a fear of death, but just plain old frustration. I had dealt with this kid's antics for around three months and I finally got tired of it. I feel a bit bad about hitting him, because I didn't mean to give him a black eye, but at the same time I feel justified in my actions. Anyways I thought it might be a good topic for the thread, is violence justified and if so, when is it justified. Aaron

After numerous decades of reading the Tao Te Ching and my recent study of the Chaung Tzu, I have come to the conclusion that the notion of Wu Wei, as it is taught by the majority of Taoist, is not in line with what Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu were actually teaching, but instead, most likely originated as a means to bridge Taoist and Buddhist philosophy. In other words it allowed the Taoist philosophy, one that is intrinsically linked to a deeper attachment with one's world, to become more palatable to the predominant Buddhist philosophy advocating detachment. I was wondering what other people thought regarding this and if anyone can actually find any passages within the Tao Te Ching that speak of Wu Wei as it's taught by most Taoist? Keep in mind I'm not talking about the Western bastardization of the philosophy, the so called, "go with the flow" Wu Wei, but the actual process taught in empty mind meditation and the early taoist schools. Aaron edit- Just to clarify, I'm using the Eastern notion of Wu Wei which is precipitated upon Wei Wu Wei, or action without action. The predominant belief, as I understand it, is focused on spontaneity, or action that is influenced intuitively, rather than logically. One acts, not because of thought or belief in the value of the action, but because it is an intuitive response to what occurs. This means the action doesn't necessarily NEED to be done, but rather is an intuitive response to what is occurring in the environment around the person experiencing wei wu wei.

Hmm... not many, but I've owned numerous and had to eat a few of them in the past. I'm using the notion of hate in the human sense, do they dislike the wolf for chasing them? Maybe. Do they have a deep and abiding seething hope that all the wolves will be wiped from the face of the earth simply because they're different than the rabbit? I don't think so. I'm assuming that rabbits, unlike people, have natural emotions in this regard and hence are less likely to hold on to worthless emotions such as this. I do appreciate your concern regarding this, because I'm certain calling this one point into question now saves us all from that eternal question that must be answered, "does the rabbit hate the wolf?" Aaron

I would think that the concept of Wu Wei would be the greatest argument against free will, in fact the state of Wu Wei is supposed to be one in which the practitioner responds to their environment without thought, moral judgement, or ideology, but rather as an intuitive response based on high virtue (Te). In this state Will doesn't exist, so one cannot really have free will or willpower, rather they only have an intuitive reaction towards their environment. Or maybe I'm missing something. This goes doubly for Buddhist thought, wherein one is supposed to realize that their is no self, hence no will to exert free will, it's just an illusion. Aaron

Nice post. I think the only thing I would recommend is not allowing others, including religious authorities, to define who you are and what you should be. Don't fall into the trap of believing that the spiritual practice you follow should somehow define who you are. Define who you are yourself and let the spiritual practice come afterwards. Aaron

I guess my complaint stems from the fact that whenever anyone comes on here and shares that they're having concerns about masturbation, the answer isn't "well it's only natural to masturbate, everyone does it, don't take it so seriously", rather it's "Oh my God! You're depleting your qi every time you ejaculate! If you don't stop now, you might only live to eighty or ninety years old and you most certainly will never experience kowaponga, that most illustrious of mystical experiences! Buy the book "How to feel guilty about something you shouldn't feel guilty about and help me to make money doing it", by Dr. I drive a BMW, what do you drive!" Yes that was a bit facetious, but if you examine the majority of these threads, that's what happens. I really get sick of all the people propagating this without any real concern for the emotional well being of those involved. I really don't think we should encourage abstinence in kids or young adults, it just doesn't make sense. Rather we should be encouraging them to feel comfortable about who they are and what they feel, rather than encouraging them to view the natural body functions they have as deviant. Aaron

And my point is that the supposed acceptance of celibacy you experienced, may not be attributed to discipline, so much as it was a drop in testosterone. The older you are, the less compelled you are to act out sexually. So the natural state you encountered was just that, a natural state we all encounter. My desire for sex now is substantially less than when I was a teenager, there's a reason for that. So what I'm saying is that trying to push these ideas on teenagers and young men in their twenties is not only impractical, but a bit cruel, simply because their body's are telling them to do something else. My second point is that I still believe you're taking it out of context. There is no prohibition against sex in the Tao Te Ching, in fact, from what I've read the practice of celibacy among Taoist monks began in response to the Emperor and Royal Courts support of Buddhism. In order to gain support the Taoist monks began to incorporate many Buddhist practices in order to garner the acceptance and financial backing of the Emperor (vegetarianism was another practice adopted at this time). In fact before this time it seems like Taoists followed a more laid back attitude, encouraging sexual intercourse in many various forms. So essentially what you believe now, isn't what was always believed. In closing, it's impractical and cruel to expect a young man to be celibate and not release the sexual frustrations that arise naturally as a result of the chemicals being released in their body. So again, those people advocating it are being cruel, especially if they are aware of this and still do it under the pretense of religion and spirituality. Aaron

I just sat down to eat, so I'll make this brief. The actual definition of ado according to websters is the following: 1: heightened fuss or concern : to-do 2: time-wasting bother over trivial details <wrote the paper without further ado> 3: trouble, difficulty I think you might've chosen the definition that you felt most closely aligned with your ideas of Wu-wei, but it isn't necessarily what Wu or Lao Tzu meant to talk about in this chapter. In other words this is not "wu" in the sense of wu-wei, but rather wu as it is repeatedly talked about throughout the tao te ching, which is that we should avoid conflict and the way to avoid conflict is through not pursuing or teaching knowledge. Aaron

Did you ever consider that the animal might be aware that it's in its nature to be food as well? The rabbit runs from the wolf because it knows this. Is the wolf bad for chasing the rabbit? Is the rabbit bad for not submitting to the wolf's need? Neither of these is true, rather both understand their place within the natural order, so they give themselves to it. The rabbit does not hate the wolf for eating it, that I do know, so the wolf has no karma attached to its act, just as man has no karma attached to the act, unless they believe the act to be bad. At least that's how I feel about it. Aaron

And that is my point. To each their own. So don't go around telling someone who feels guilty about masturbation that he needs to become f-ing celibate just because you think it's the right thing to do. Don't impose your morality on others, allow them to come to their own conclusion. The child's integrity was whole, not because they never had sex, but because they had not fallen into the trap of virtue, morality, and humanity, they were still living in Tao. That's what's being misunderstood here. The compulsion to have sex is not bad or good, it just is. If we start applying moral conditions upon it, that's when it ceases to be natural and instead becomes a product of morality and humanity. In that sense one who masturbates would not lose their vitality, unless they believed it to be wrong to do so. This is what most people fail to realize. So live and let live. Don't impose your own guilt ridden life choice on others. Aaron

And where here does it say not to masturbate? Where here does it say that the union of male and female is "bad?" I don't think it is, rather it's explaining the state of Virtue. Now lets also point out that Lao Tzu would tell you that a forty year old who had not known the union of male and female did not exist in this state, because? Well not because he had never had sex, but rather because he understood the notion of good and evil. Failing Tao man resorts to virtue, Failing virtue man resorts to humanity, Failing humanity man resorts to morality... etc. Essentially what's happened is people decided to start a cult like practice and use whatever passages they find out of context in order to justify it. If you really understood what you're reading you'd have understood this has very little to do with sex, and rather answers the age old question of whether or not a child is born in sin as well as what we should aspire to. (I actually started a thread about this regarding a "return to innocence" and what that meant.) The fact that you can't leave a baby out in the wilderness and not have it be attacked or stung should've been your first clue not to take this literally. My advice read chapter 10 and you'll begin to understand this chapter more clearly. Aaron