Aaron

Well thanks for your response, but again, you have a very limited understanding of the Tao Teh Ching in my opinion. It really doesn't matter to me what you think about me, I just notice the underlying animosity in your responses to my posts, verses the responses you give others. Again, I recommend that you actually study the Tao Teh Ching, not read text books on the Tao Teh Ching. Your information is skewed. Also, don't try to twist my words. I was referring to the fact most knowledgeable Taoist scholars would understand that my comments about the justification of violence weren't directed at Taoist philosophy, which is very clear that it is justified, but rather the various non-violent schools of thought that are out there. You are again quoting more pseudo-psychology Wayne Dyer Taoism. Stop believing everything you're told and start reading the Tao Teh Ching for yourself. Just because a man shaves his head doesn't make him a guru. In fact shaving your head is a Buddhist thing, not Taoist. (Do you understand what I'm getting at? Dyer really isn't teaching Taoism or the Tao Teh Ching.) Also one can define what reality is and the Tao Teh Ching does a good job of this. You're mixing Buddhism and Taoism in that regard. Reality is what you perceive to be real through your senses. It's a very simple answer. Lao Tzu mentioned rivers, mountains, men, women, and numerous other things and understood they were very real. Read the Tao Teh Ching and you'll understand this as well. Lao Tzu mentioned that the Tao could not be described, but you seem to feel it's fine to give it human characteristics. That's fine for you, but you should realize it's meaningless BS to do so. There's a reason virtue plays such a big part in the Tao Teh Ching and a reason the vast majority ignore it and focus on Tao, because one requires you to be a virtuous person, the other is beyond virtue, hence these people seem to believe that they are beyond virtue and can behave any way they choose. The irony is that without understanding virtue you will never understand the mystery of mysteries. Again, read the Tao Teh Ching, it actually shouldn't take more than a few hours, then study it, that should take a bit longer to understand. After that practice what it says and stop trying to psychoanalyze my actions, then you might just hit on what it's talking about. Aaron edit- Also I wasn't equating you with anyone on the forum, I'm not sure where you got that.

I wanted to thank everyone who was supportive of what happened. I had hoped that we might talk more about violence and how it effects us and what we need to do about it. As many know a year ago I was a resolute pacifist and it was easy to be a pacifist because I didn't have anyone who challenged it. In the last few months I've had those ideas challenged. I got into a shouting match in April because I yelled at a woman who threatened to punch a little boy who was walking with her. A bit before that I got into a confrontation with a group of kids who were destroying the neighbor's garbage cans. What I realize is that I'm not as passive as I thought I was, but what provokes me to anger the quickest isn't those things that cause me harm, I can take abuse for quite awhile before I react, rather it's those things causing others harm that irritate me the most. I'm sure if this kid was bullying someone else at work I would've stepped up immediately and said something, but because it was me I didn't feel the need, it was only after I felt it had gone beyond the point that I needed to suffer anymore that I decided to warn him, then react when he failed to heed my warning. Diminish our desires. What does this mean when it comes to being bullied and picked on? What do you think someone should do and why? That's what I wanted to hear about and I hope other will share. Aaron

I think control is a loaded word. If this is coming back towards me as a review of my actions, I'm more than willing to stand up for the decision I made. I didn't strike in anger, the last straw was drawn and I decided I had to react, otherwise what do I next time, continue to threaten and not react? I did what I felt was the right thing to do and maybe it wasn't the right thing to do. What happens now happens and I'm responsible for my part in it, but I'm also willing to accept that part. I wont go around work bragging or even talking about it, it will die in that moment and the only way it will be resurrected is if the other person decides to say something. I have a clear conscience. But again, it's not important whether what I did was right or wrong, but what the eventual outcome is. I try very hard to be as compassionate as I can be. I get agitated by people sometimes, but I try very hard not to let my agitation cause me to harm others needlessly. I'm not perfect, I will make mistakes and cause harm to others, maybe not physically but emotionally. The important thing for me is to try to do what I feel is right and know is right. With that in mind the Tao Teh Ching has some clear guidelines for how we should behave, I'm trying very hard to follow those guidelines. I think sometimes we think that we should strive to be the perfect person, the sage, but we should know by now that Lao Tzu was talking about the ideal, not the reality. The reality isn't that we always succeed, but that we try very hard to succeed. Aaron

Okay so this is what I call "Lazy Taoism". The Eternal Tao can't be defined as big, nor can it be defined as having any kind of reaction towards us, because it is beyond description. So how can the "Big Tao" laugh? I meet a lot of people that believe Taoism allows you to do whatever you want, even though half the book is dedicated towards the principles of virtue. I'm not one of those people. I believe that the Tao Teh Ching encourages us to live virtuous lives so that we can live in harmony with those around us and through this connection to others we can achieve a reconnection to Higher Virtue. Stosh, I've said this before and I'll say it again, you've got a skewed understanding of Taoism, one that has a bit too much new age stuff in the mix imo. I'd recommend reading the Tao Teh Ching and studying it so you can get a better understanding of what it says. Most of what you say isn't actually Taoist, but more along the lines of Wayne Dwyer pseudo-Taoism and psycho-self help guruism. With that in mind, there are numerous passages within the Tao Teh Ching that tell us to avoid violence, but none that say that we can't defend ourselves when others are violent. I tend to take the platform that Lao Tzu encouraged others to walk away or avoid conflict unless it can't be avoided or puts others in danger. Also keep in mind that the Eternal Tao is undefinable, so trying to attribute human qualities and emotions to it is a bit absurd. What I'm saying is that you can't really say that the Eternal Tao laughs at us, because you really can't even define it. Once you start defining it, that's not the eternal Tao. Get it? I know it gets complicated because we like to talk about it a lot, just remember the problem starts when we try to define the characteristics of the Eternal Tao, because it can't be done. Also my question regarding justification was directed more at the Buddhist and Hinduist than it was the Taoist. I think that the underlying negativity you present in your replies to me might be something you might want to examine. You seem to have a bit of repressed, or perhaps unrepressed, anger towards me. If so you might want to diminish this desire to harm me verbally and look at how you can live more in harmony with me. Aaron

Hey Dawei, I'll shoot you an email tomorrow. I don't live in Orlando anymore, but I do plan on coming back for a few days in August, maybe we can hook up then. Aaron

Hello Dawei, I thought I might weigh in on this topic and my own specific views, although they may differ a bit from Flowing Hands. In regards to self, the Tao Teh Ching and even the Chuang Tzu do not go into any great detail about self, or how we should view self, rather I think this obsession came later with the introduction of Buddhism into Chinese culture, as a result it became very important to adherents of Taoism to come up with a concrete description of self, when in my own opinion, I don't think Lao Tzu (or Chaung Tzu) felt it was necessary. Chaung Tzu does have his famous Butterfly revelation, but even that isn't so much contemplating what we are, but rather our place within society, so in essence what is essential for a Taoist is understanding his place within the world as a whole, not just the "natural" world, but the "unnatural" aspects as well, such as culture, morality, and society in general. So the question for me isn't so much "what is self", but rather how do we as individuals relate to the world around us. The female principle in my mind is very important, especially since we live in a very macho culture, we tend to forget the importance of the feminine. Remember that unless we can keep to the feminine, we cannot be the brook of the world. Now achieving an understanding of the feminine requires that we also remember the importance of virtue, for the feminine cannot be attained with virtue, for it's very nature is that of creation and the sustenance from which all life is born. The virtues of compassion, non-competition, and frugality seem to be interwoven with this idea, in fact these principles are the same ones we associate with the ideal mother, she is loving to her children, teaches her children to get along with others, and also scrimps and saves in order to provide for her children. By practicing these virtues in our life, we can be the brook of the world. It does not require a lifetime of teaching by anyone, for these virtues exist within each of us, we just need to learn to act upon them. There is much more I could say about the feminine, but for the sake of brevity, if one remembers the three jewels, then they really don't need to know anything else in order to hold to the feminine. Much ado is made about spirit and energy, but I think there is a reason that it is only alluded to in the Tao Teh Ching and Chuang Tzu rather than overtly expressed, because spirit and energy are secondary to Te and Tao. If one has not achieved an understanding of Te and Tao, then understanding spirit and energy is useless, for one can achieve great skill in these practices, but never understand the source from which they come, ultimately failing to understand the purpose of cultivating energy in the first place. So my recommendation for those interested in Qi is to also study the Tao Teh Ching, understand the Te and virtue, both High Virtue and Low Virtue, and from this understanding you will find your own practice elevated to higher levels. Now if we want to talk about the nature of spirit and energy in the Tao Teh Ching, that could be very enigmatic, because the notion of these things is intricately related to the mystery of mysteries, so again, discussing these things is sort of like trying to discuss the color red with someone who is blind, you can describe it to them, even hand them something that is red, but unless they are able to see it, they will never understand fully what you are talking about. In regards to politics and human wisdom, only a very ignorant or self absorbed person can read the Tao Teh Ching and not see that it was intended to be used as a political handbook. We like to apply it to our daily lives and there is nothing wrong with that, but the intention was for it to be read by the rulers of the day so that they could apply its teaching and learn to rule in a just and compassionate manner. Again, that doesn't mean we can't apply these virtues in our own lives, but I don't believe that Lao Tzu intended the Tao Teh Ching to be used in that manner. The fact that it has become such a powerful and influential manuscript is a testament to the truth that resides within the manuscript. One need not be the ruler of a kingdom to see the wisdom of it's teachings, nor does one need to be a Sage to practice the virtues expressed within and benefit those around them. In regards to enlightenment and cultivation, so much has been said and is said regarding this topic, that rather than rehash those old debates, I would rather express what I feel is significant regarding Taoist enlightenment, and that is that its root is firmly placed in the ideas of dualism. This is how it differentiates from Buddhism, in that in Taoism the world is not transient in nature, nor is it an illusion, rather it is very real and it is part of who we are. In many regards Taoism is more closely related to Advaita Vedanta than it is to Buddhism. We are encouraged, not to detach ourselves from desire, but to diminish them. We are not told that light and dark do not exist, but rather that they are linked to each other. We are encouraged, not to distinguish the truth from a lie, but to realize both are the same thing. In Taoist enlightenment we do not come to a realization that nothing exists, but that everything exists and it comes from a single source. It is understanding that source that brings us enlightenment, and this enlightenment may free us from the fear of death, but it does not erase our sins or karmic debt (because they don't exist in Taoism), rather it allows us an understanding of how the universe works and in understanding this, we can become beneficial to all things. It is only through this understanding that we can truly put the world before ourselves, sacrifice our own comfort for others, and understand how calamity can be a blessing. Anyways it's late and I don't have much more time to type, so I'll leave it there. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to ask, though I have a feeling most people aren't interested in these answers. Aaron

We talked already, so I think things will be fine. I worry more about him than I do me. Aaron

He called me this morning to make sure we were still buddies, so I'm not worried about him retaliating. He's not really the gangbanger type, just young (19) and because I was 42 and passive, I think he thought I'd just back down. I told him we're cool and we chatted a bit, so I think things will be fine. Aaron

Thanks for the responses. I guess I've felt a bit hypocritical because I always tell people to do no harm to others or themselves, and here I went and lashed out. I'm not sure if I needed to lash out, but there was something that snapped inside me and I just hit him. I don't remember intending to hit him hard enough to knock him down, but I have thirty-five pounds on him, at most he's about 175 lbs and I'm 210 lbs. (That's why I say I'm not a bad ass, just big.) In the future I think I'll have to be more proactive with these types of things, set down the line early on, not let it get to the point that I have to resort to hurting someone. I don't really feel unjustified, though I'm sure a monk would tell me there is no such thing as justified violence, but at the same time, when you're poked over and over there is a point where you just can't take getting poked one more time and I reached that point. Again, I think I'll try and stop it at the first poke next time, rather than let things get out of hand. I still stand by the idea that the best thing to do is cause no harm to others and yourself, but it's also important to keep in mind that doesn't mean you allow others to harm you in the process. Aaron

I have a problem with many religion's notion of enlightenment, especially when they tend to believe that enlightened people transcend the natural impulses of man. I have yet to find any proof that this is so, rather I find proof that it isn't, in particular historical evidence and news articles regarding religious authorities that have purportedly achieved enlightenment that end up doing things grossly immoral and un-compassionate in any context. Okay, so I admit I'm assuming this, that there is the possibility that others can escape desires and wants, but if so, who are they and how did they prove this? My point of course is that because we are intrinsically tied to this world and body, there is no way of escaping the dual nature we live within, even if we are aware of the non-duality of existence. I am well aware that the world is non-dual, not only intellectually, but also experientially. Many doubt this, that's okay, I don't need to prove it, but I did realize that for awhile I had doubts about these experiences because I failed to be free of desires and wants, of simple things like hunger. In fact I have major food issues still, which stem from growing up in poverty and not having enough food. How do I know I have these issues still? Well I had a friend reach out for my bowl of soup, wanting me to put it down and I bristled up and told him point blank, "don't touch my food." Even though I knew he didn't need or want it... it was the threat of losing the food that caused me to tense up. So my point is that everyone has issues, regardless of their spiritual advancement and to fail to acknowledge this misleads people. The idea that we can escape all desire and suffering is not realistic, nor is there really any evidence to support that anyone has, so why do we continue to propagate it as a truth? Isn't it infinitely better to encourage people to work on their character defects, the ones that prevent them from experiencing quality in their life, without having to use misleading information to get them to do so? Anyways, just some thoughts I was having. I'm sure some people will have ideas about this. Anyone want to take bets on who on the TTB chimes in with the absolute truth regarding this? I'm joking, that'd be a fools bet, we all know. Aaron

I'm interested in learning more about Bunny Style (Hare Style, Rabbit Style) Kung Fu. Does anyone know anything about it? In particular I'd like to know more about the Bunny Stances and Forms. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Aaron

This is the problem with most Taoists, they love the Tao part, but not the Virtue (De) part. If you're asking how we are supposed to behave according to what the Tao Teh Ching says, well I would recommend that you read a few chapters to get a general understanding, the first, and most important for many Taoists, is Chapter 38. The second passage you should read is 67. These two passages talk about the Tao and virtue and how these two phenomena relate to us. First nowhere in the Tao Teh Ching does it tell you to give in to what feels natural, rather it encourages us to develop and cultivate virtue to the extent that it becomes natural. Lao Tzu was well aware that, even 2,500 years ago, man had become far removed from what was "natural". Those that oppose the cultivation of virtue, tend to do so because they like the idea that they can do anything they want, so long as it "feels good", but there is no passage within the Tao Teh Ching that advocates this. If you're feeling conflicted about something you're doing, ask yourself if what you are doing is going to harm someone else or yourself, if the answer is no, then why do you feel conflicted? Well the answer comes down to the idea that we are not living naturally anymore, morality and ideology have taken precedent over what is beneficial to others, hence the need for virtues to follow. The idea is that the longer we practice these virtues, the more natural they become, until one day they are the most natural things for us to do. The difference between virtue and morality is that virtue is the fundamental behaviors each man and woman is born with, compassion, frugality, and non-competition, for example, whereas morality is based on the notion of right and wrong according to a man made dogma. I would recommend reading Allan Watts "The Watercourse Way" and Benjamin Hoff's "The Tao of Pooh" and the "The Te of Piglet". Those are probably the best sources on the topic you'll find. If you don't understand everything right now, don't be surprised. Expect to make mistakes, no one's perfect, just remember that the trick is, as I like to put it, to do no harm to yourself or others. If you can do that, then you're probably living a pretty conflict free / non-interfering / harmonious existence, which is what Lao Tzu was actually talking about. Aaron

I was wondering if anyone else would be interested in a sub-forum for Anime discussion? I have a poll to gauge interest, but I think it would be great addition to discuss all things anime! Be sure and vote. Aaron P.S. Anime is contagious! Very contagious! Muahahaha! (cough! cough! The evil laugh irritates my throat.)

I'm not trying to get much out of it, other than just enjoying what I watch. I'm currently watching Sgt. Frog. I'm almost done, once I am, I'll head over and watch Korra. Aaron

thanks for the input. I'll be avoiding this thread til I watch the series. I found all the episodes at Nickelodeon. Aaron

Excellent post, but let me make some clarifications regarding Taoism and humility. Although many people believe that humility is one of the three jewels, it's actually not, in fact humility is confused with "not striving to be first in the world". In fact the idea of not being first in the world is repeated throughout the Tao Te Ching and it simply means that we should not compete with others. This means it's fine to understand that you're good at something, just don't compete. The problem with most people is that they believe humility means that you're not as good as others, but that's not the correct attitude when approaching humility, rather you should understand you are no better or worse than others. Even if you're better at say, martial arts than someone else, that doesn't mean that you're better than them in everything. Everyone has something to offer you, whether it's a tip on how to cook noodles properly or a life experience that they learned from that you can learn from as well. So remember you're no better or worse than me and you have something to offer me, just like I have something to offer you. Good luck on your journey and remember there is no substitute for practice, and that means practicing what you know is right in all your affairs. Aaron

Shoot. I just got done watching Avatar, had no idea that Korra existed. Is it as good as the first series? Are the episodes available online? Hmm... well this is something to look forward to. Please, no spoilers. I'll have to search for the series now. Currently watching Sgt Frog, so it'll have to wait til I'm done with that, but at least I have a follow up. Aaron

You're still hung up on allowance. Let me just say that we may walk a way, but we cannot walk "the way", because the way can never be known or defined. A common misconception of people reading the Tao Teh Ching is that Lao Tzu is teaching us how to live in "the TAO", but there is no way for us to really live in the Tao, because the Tao is undefinable and as a result, so is the way to live within it. What Lao Tzu teaches us is to live a virtuous life and by doing so we can learn to live in a state of peace with our neighbors and do little harm to others or to ourselves, or at least that's how I like to explain it. Once we begin telling people how to live the way, we've lost the message, because the way that can taught is not the eternal way, and of course we are also wise to remember that the sage doesn't teach through words, but rather through their actions. Allow your actions to be the barometer of your life and you'll soon find out if you are living a virtuous life or not. For those about to take a pot shot at virtue, remember I'm talking about high virtue, not morality. High virtue is something completely different and numerous threads have been started on the topic, so if you'd like to learn more, do a search and I'm sure you'll find out loads of fun information. Aaron

If you've ever watched Sgt. Frog season 1 episode 5, you know that allowance is so much more than that, it's the force that allows you to buy Gundam models and limited edition Anime. Just kidding. I don't think allowance is a good analogy for Tao (I'm assuming you're taking this from Chapter 34 of the Tao Teh Ching). I think when one is in harmony with the world and those around them then it's really about being in the present and understanding one's effect on others, but even then that's a small part of Tao. Remember Tao is roughly translated to "way", so really when Lao Tzu is talking about Tao he's talking about the way Tao works, and that's not allowing things to happen so much as it is being at peace with what's happening. Aaron

The irony is that we take the concept of taoism from Lao Tzu and he probably would've been the first to discourage thinking of yourself as one. He was all about personal freedom and not allowing labels to define who and what you are. You simply are, which means you don't have to be a Taoist or anything else, just who you are right here and now. Aaron

I have to agree with Chi, Dao is Open is really not the greatest place to discuss the Tao. There are only a handful of active members and they tend to be broken up into cliques that ostracize and criticize new members. That's not to say they don't have a few members who can talk about it, but for most of them, their practice seems to fall short of their ideals (but then again, isn't that the case for most of us?) It was the first forum I joined way back when, but I left shortly after finding this one. I found DIO to be a very negative place to talk about Daoism. As far as the Tea House goes, being banned is a right of passage for most of us. I know more people who've been banned from that place than are members, LITERALLY. It's a very Orwellian site and not for those who question authority or like to bring up the fact it's backed by one of the largest cults in Tiawan. My suggestion, don't worry so much about forums. Worry about your own practice and try to meet people in the real world that are Taoists. That's where it's at. Aaron

Hello Bluemonk, I'm sorry to hear that you have suffered so much as a child. Nothing seems as painful as the pain we suffer within our minds. I have cut my toe off, have had to have twelve stitches to close up a severed artery, yet the memories that haunt me the most are of the emotional pain others have caused me, and the most painful of those are the ones where I felt helpless. There's no quick and easy answer to your questions, I wish there was. The truth of the matter is that some people find it very hard to love themselves, most often because they don't believe they are worthy of that love. You've said you feel the same way. The only thing I can tell you is that if you can love another person, then you do love yourself, you just don't know it. The fact of the matter is that love is a two way street, so if you have love for your mother, then within that love is the love you have for your self. But in the same way, hate and shame are a two way street, so if you have hatred for another person, then within that hatred is a hatred of yourself. What you need to decide is which is more important for you, the shame and helplessness you felt, or the love and kindness you have felt. In regards to good memories, we all have them, just sometimes we choose to ignore them because we get comfortable with the pain, it's almost like we refuse to give it up because we don't know any other way to live. You have to decide for yourself whether you want to continue to live as you have been living or move on and find something better. Lots of people will tell you how to do that, but I wont tell you, because each person is different. What you need to do, though, is go out and find a charity and start volunteering. The only way to get out of yourself is to give yourself to others. That's not a slogan or nice little phrase, but a fact. Whether it's tutoring your fellow students, helping out at a shelter, or spending time with the elderly, the first step to understanding how valuable you are as a person, is understanding how much you have to offer others. I hope that helps. Aaron

I first want to point out how odd the phrase "emptiness will bring you the truth of fullness" sounds. That's like saying eat nothing and you will be full. Emptiness does not bring fullness, in fact the emptiness that's talked about in this sense isn't empty to begin with and experiencing it brings neither fullness or truth, if anything you realize the complete absurdity of the idea of truth. That's not really a knock on you Fizix, but rather just an observation. Second, having a conversation with yourself is a relatively easy thing to do, but in doing so, you must ask yourself, is this self I'm talking to a separate self, or is it me? Is this self I talk to the self that says what I want to say, but am too afraid to say, or is it truly a separate identity? The exercise of talking to yourself is discouraged, because the practice is considered eccentric (if not crazy) by the majority, because our society teaches us that we are a single self within a single body within a single universe (do you see the pattern here?) The fact of the matter is that psychology is coming to terms with the notion that we are not really as united as we'd like to believe we are, most people have states within us that we don't even realize exist. They may not be full personalities but they are there. In fact under hypnosis it is commonly known that if you tell the person under hypnosis that you want to talk to the part of them that knows something, nine times out of ten that part will emerge and sometimes it will have characteristics decidedly different from the person being asked the question. What does this tell us about ourselves? Well it says that we really don't understand how the human mind works or even how we truly experience the world around us. One of the last hidden landscapes is the landscape of the mind, not only the mass of flesh we call the brain that it resides within, but the actual structure of the personality and the ego. Most psychologists discount the notion of ego, shadow, etc. because it is too limiting in regards to what we are finding on a daily basis. So to answer your question, no it doesn't seem odd to me at all that you can have a conversation with yourself. Aaron

There's a big difference between believing in chi and what Tulku and the Tulku-esque people that have come on since he left (was banned, whatever) have been spouting. I think most people can differentiate between alternative and odd beliefs and complete psychosis. And I still stand by my first point, if 99 people tell you you're crazy and one says you're not, who do you listen to? I know someone will say "well maybe the one is the only one that realizes the truth", but lets face it, maybe the one is just as delusional as you? I've had conversations with Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. about Chi and none have ever said it was crazy, however if I said, "God wants all men to quit having sex, stop eating, and prepare for his second coming", I'm sure all would say I needed help. Aaron

I hope someone figures out how he keeps coming back after being banned. Seth was on the mark too, he's definitely suffering from some delusions, the clinical kind in my non-professional opinion. If everyone tells you you're crazy, maybe you should start thinking about it. Aaron