Aaron

I try very hard not to judge people these days. In part because I don't want to do what other people have done to me. What you do and how you do it, shouldn't matter, so long as you're not harming anyone. If you aren't, then live your life the way you want.

HE who knows does not speak. He who speaks does not know.

Funny. I honestly believe I saw the nature of emptiness and forgot. I don't know if it's mean for everyone to retain this kind of knowledge. Some of us will attain it but not be ready for it. For those people I think we just muddle through as best we can trying do as little harm as possible.

You will fit in well here. Welcome.

If you are hungry, eat. If you are thirsty, drink. If you are tired, sleep. If you need to sneeze, sneeze.

Thanks for all of the interesting replies. It's late and I got the idea to jump on and see what people are saying. I've been thinking about this a lot lately, in particular what does it all mean? Is there a purpose to life and if so what is it? One thing I've realized is that when I have serious issues in my life, I can almost always attribute it to morality. I know this is a tangent, but what I realize is that wrong and right are almost always involved in my problems. If I do something because I think it's the right thing to do and it causes me harm, was it the right thing to do? If I don't do something because I believe it's the right thing to do and it causes someone else harm, is it the right thing to do? A long time ago I tried to give up on the whole notion of right and wrong, but it's really hard to do, especially since it's ingrained in almost every facet of our lives. In fact I think we'd have to give up every precept of modern western society (and most eastern societies) in order to escape this idea. I think that is one reason why I can certainly question anyone that says they know what it's all about, simply because knowing in itself seems to be linked to morality. If I "know" something, then I've assumed it is accurate and hence "right". The fact is everything I know is an assumption and because I just said that, I immediately believe it's wrong. I think what I am going to concentrate on doing is causing no harm. Lately my life has been very chaotic and I'm finding it hard to be compassionate and understanding, but hopefully, if I can give up this idea of right and wrong, of knowing something, maybe I'll be able to get by on ignorance.

Worry less about dying and more about living. The former we have no control over, the latter we at least have an illusion of control over.

So I've been reading a book that was given to me a long time ago, but since I thought I knew about the topic sufficiently, never bothered to read it. The book is Steven Lukes "Moral Relativism" and it discusses the concept of moral relativity and what it actually entails, rather than what most people believe it to be. It is an excellent book and quite eye opening. What I started to think about, though, was whether or not Taoism is mutually inclusive with the concept of moral relativism and my answer was, at least in regards to Lao Tzu and most of what Chuang Tzu advocated, it is. One particular point that is made in the book is in regards to cultural diversity and whether or not we need to tolerate another culture or instead have an equal respect for it (something that can also be used in respect to moral and religious relativism as well). I think Lao Tzu was not a relativist, how could he be, since he was advocating a moral ideology, hence the reason I ask whether or not Taoism and Moral Relativism are mutually inclusive, but I do believe that one aspect of Taoism most people miss is the need to tolerate others. Lao Tzu wasn't advocating equal respect however, in other words he believed his own ideology was superior, so equal respect was out of the question, rather he was advocating tolerance, allowing people to practice inferior ideologies in the hopes that peace would arise from it. So I'm wondering if that can ever really occur, since tolerance itself is a bit demeaning. Tolerance says, "I'll let you do what you want to do, but I know in my heart my beliefs are superior to yours." This in essence is combative to the other person's culture or personal ideology. I wonder if perhaps what we should be thinking is that our personal beliefs are no more important than another person's beliefs and that ultimately we should have equal respect for their beliefs, not in the sense of tolerance, but rather that their beliefs are just as valid as ours because their perspective is as valid as ours. With that said, perhaps the only way for us to truly go beyond good and evil is to dismiss the notion of moral superiority completely, to understand that our own perspective is only valid when put in the context of the community in which we live, that in order for each of us to surpass this notion of good and evil, then we must first get beyond the notion of individual and community, of mores and values, and instead begin to live life from a fresh notion. In essence we need to wipe the slate clean and begin to examine the world without the context of right or wrong, eh or oh, etc., etc., and instead look at each action from a relativistic point of view, one that examines the benefits and harm attributed to that action, not in a cultural or moral context, but within the context of the effects it has physically and emotionally on another individual. We should also understand that the effects of a single action can vary and we should not construe rules according to these actions based on the majority, but rather remember to make this judgement based on each individual circumstance. Oh well, I went off topic a bit, but I will bring it around again and ask this question, "Is moral relativism what Lao Tzu was pointing towards, or was he firm in the notion that the ideals of the Tao Te Ching were all that were needed?" Aaron

From my understanding of spiritual progression, you begin with Bing.com, then transition to AskJeeves.com, find that empty and shallow, so seeking something with more substance choose Yahoo.com, only to find that they are exploiting your spirituality with commercialism, so you eventually settle for google.com, however with age, you become disillusioned with their youthful idealism and choose bing.com once again, starting the spiritual cycle all over.

With all of the attacks on homosexuality this year, I am finding it hard to be a moral relativist. I can't help but see this homophobia as attacks based on cultural and social mores, rather than based on ethical epistemology. It staggers my mind that people can have hate so ingrained that they revert to spiteful children.

By the way, hello Steve and Thelerner. I hope you guys are doing well. I originally said hello in my first post, but must have deleted it.

My quippy phrase for the day... He who drinks all his soda, has an empty can.

I agree... so maybe we could say, "he who tells you he knows it all, really doesn't." My pet peeve is people who talk like they know what's going on, me included. The people I know that seem to know what's going on, don't tell you what's going on, they say something quippy like, "you will see when you see" or "all rivers lead to the ocean", because they know you can't explain these things, they have to be experienced. The person explaining, in most cases, hasn't experienced it.

This guy isn't a master, he's a pervert. Stay away from him. Master's don't normally coerce people into having sex with them, by giving them drugs and alcohol. I would actually report him to the police, because there is a good chance he may actually have used these tactics to rape someone in the past. Let me elaborate, as a gay man, I don't think he's a pervert for being gay, but because he's trying to coerce men into having sex with him using drugs and alcohol. the other important thing to remember is that he is trying to use power and authority to get what he wants. It's like the man who sends away for a mail order bride and then demands sex or he'll send them back. That's what sets off warning signals like crazy.

Hello folks, I'm including three different translations now, the Wu, Feng/English, and Henricks translations, since those are the three that I have access to that keep popping up throughout discussion. I have read all three, but I will wait for others to comment before I jump in. (Translated by John C. H. Wu) By not exalting the talented you will cause the people to cease from rivalry and contention. By not prizing goods hard to get, you will cause the people to cease from robbing and stealing. By not displaying what is desirable, you will cause the people's hearts to remain undisturbed. Therefore, the Sage's way of governing begins by Emptying the heart of desires, Filling the belly with food, Weakening the ambitions, Toughening the bones. In this way he will cause the people to remain without knowledge and without desire, and prevent the knowing ones from any ado. Practice Non-Ado, and everything will be in order. (Translated by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English) Not exalting the gifted prevents quarreling. Not collecting treasures prevents stealing. Not seeing desirable things prevents confusion of the heart. The wise therefore rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies, by weakening ambitions and strengthening bones. If men lack knowledge and desire, then clever people will not try to interfere. If nothing is done, then all will be well. (Translated by Robert Henricks- Note this translation is of an older version of the Tao Teh Ching and may differ from other translations) 1. By not elevating the worthy, you bring it about that people will not compete. 2. By not valuing goods that are hard to obtain, you bring it about that people will not act like thieves. 3. By not displaying the desirable you bring it about that people will not be confused. 4. Therefore, in the government of the Sage: 5. He empties their minds, 6. And fills their bellies. 7. Weakens their ambition, 8. And strengthens their bones. 9. He constantly causes the people to be without knowledge and without desires. 10. If he can bring it about that those with knowledge simply do not dare to act, 11. Then there is nothing that will not be in order. ---------------- Aaron

Here's Chapter Nine... I look forward to your discussion. (Translated by John C. H. Wu) As for holding to fullness, Far better were it to stop in time! Keep on beating and sharpening a sword, And the edge cannot be preserved for long. Fill your house with gold and jade, And it can no longer be guarded. Set store by your riches and honour, And you will only reap a crop of calamities. Here is the Way of Heaven: When you have done your work, retire! (Translated by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English) Better to stop short than fill to the brim. Oversharpen the blade, and the edge will soon blunt. Amass a store of gold and jade, and no one can protect it. Claim wealth and titles, and disaster will follow. Retire when the work is done. This is the way of heaven. (Translated by Robert G. Henricks- Note this translation is from an earlier version of the TTC and may differ from the others.) 1. To hold it upright and fill it, 2. Is not so good as stopping [in time]. 3. When you pound it out and give it a point, 4. It won't be preserved very long. 5. When gold and jade fill your rooms, 6. You'll never be able to protect them. 7. Arrogance and pride with wealth and rank, 8. On their own bring on disaster. 9. When the deed is accomplished you retire; 10. Such is Heaven's Way! ------------- Aaron

In my non-professional opinion, it sounds like you might have caused her to feel threatened and scared for her safety.

I've never cared for Chuang Tzu (or ZZ for those who take offense). My argument has consistently been that Lao Tzu taught about the sage and Chuang Tzu thought of himself as a sage. In other words, Lao Tzu always seemed to be interested in presenting his message without pretense, Chuang Tzu was a man who's message was founded upon pretense.

Hello folks, Sorry about the delay in posting. I will post nine tomorrow on schedule. I hadn't realized it had been three days. Apologies. With no further delay here is chapter Eight. (Translated by John C. H. Wu) THE highest form of goodness is like water. Water knows how to benefit all things without striving with them. It stays in places loathed by all men. Therefore, it comes near the Tao. In choosing your dwelling, know how to keep to the ground. In cultivating your mind, know how to dive in the hidden deeps. In dealing with others, know how to be gentle and kind. In speaking, know how to keep your words. In governing, know how to maintain order. In transacting business, know how to be efficient. In making a move, know how to choose the right moment. If you do not strive with others, You will be free from blame. (Translated by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English) The highest good is like water. Water give life to the ten thousand things and does not strive. It flows in places men reject and so is like the Tao. In dwelling, be close to the land. In meditation, go deep in the heart. In dealing with others, be gentle and kind. In speech, be true. In ruling, be just. In daily life, be competent. In action, be aware of the time and the season. No fight: No blame. (Translated by Robert G. Henricks) 1. The highest good is like water; 2. Water is good at benefiting the ten thousand things and yet it [does not] compete [with them]. 3. It dwells in places the masses of people detest, 4. Therefore it is close to the Way. 5. In dwelling, the good thing is the land; 6. In the mind, the good thing is depth; 7. In giving, the good thing is [being like] Heaven; 8. In speaking, the good thing is sincerity; 9. In governing, the good thing is order; 10. In affairs, the good thing is ability; 11. In activity, the good thing is timeliness. 12. It is only because it does not compete, that therefore it is without fault. ----------- Aaron

Depending on how low you're feeling, you might need to see a professional. Remember religion and philosophy are fine, but there is no reason to avoid the advantages of scientific discovery in helping you feel better, that includes psychology. I've seen a few in my time and they have always been helpful. I also talk to my friends about how I'm feeling, because I know for me isolation is a big part of depression. If I'm actively engaging others and being a part of the community, then it really helps alleviate some of that sense of loneliness. I hope you feel better. If it gets too much, remember to reach out and ask for help before you harm yourself. There are people that care about you, let them help you. Aaron

When you learn that evil is subjective, then you learn that there really is nothing evil or good, but what we decide is so. If you really believe we are all inherently evil, then perhaps it's something inside you that's causing you to see the world this way, rather than the world actually being as you see it. Aaron

This is just a general service announcement, tonight some family members contacted me to warn me that someone was sending them emails and apparently they had gotten my contact list. The only problem was that it included a few contacts that were only on my Taobums account, which leads me to believe that they got into my Tao Bums account somehow and then used the same password to access my email. I've changed all this information, but I wanted to warn people if you receive an email from me asking you to visit a link, please disregard it and let me know. I apologize for any inconvenience this might have caused. Aaron

I came across this video on Facebook and thought I'd share with other people.

I urge everyone to be strange for at least a little while. I'm strange to most people. I'm a gay jew living in a small conservative western Washington town. I refuse to conform, unless there's a reason to conform. For me living life is about living as simply as possible. My home consists of a studio apartment about the size of most people's bedrooms. My only luxury is a full sized tub in the bathroom. I'm happy, my studio is small, and doesn't take much time to clean. I don't have a car, which is very uncommon, instead I have a bike, which also has fenders to keep the streaks of mud from running up my back when I'm riding in the rain, and it does rain a lot here. I tend to talk with a faint accent. People often ask if I'm from back east. I tell them yes, Florida, but I don't tell them my accent is from New York. I like to keep them guessing. I live in a very religious community and work for the Catholic Church as a counselor. Yes, they are aware there is a gay jew in their midst, so no worries about that. I help people who have substance abuse problems as a counselor. Most of these people worry about "being normal", I tell them normal is overrated and sometimes the best you can ask for is a peaceful day. Sobriety and life in general shouldn't really even be about strange or normal, but rather whether we are living our lives authentically. Authenticity means you never have to lie about who you are. I've had to do that out of fear in the past, but I don't do it anymore. If you like me, you like me. If you don't, you don't. I ramble, that makes me strange, but what makes me happy is that I do something I love and get paid to do it. I have good friends that I have the good fortune of sharing my time with and I have opportunities that many people don't have. In the end I will live my life as I see fit, for so long as I can. Compassion, frugality, and never striving to be first in the world. Try that for awhile and you'll know what strange is.